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Espresso Diagnosis - I need help!

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  • u2jewel
    replied
    Others have mentioned that it might be the capacitor; electrical side of things I don't understand that much, so I won't go there. I thought it was like a light bulb, where it's either working or not working. My own studying on the topic is much needed.
    You mentioned earlier that it's not the pin stopping you from dialing in finer. So I would like to double check, because although I mentioned it in earlier post, it is yet to be eliminated as a cause.
    It is grinding fine up to a certain grind setting point, and anything finer beyond that point would stop the grinder. Anything that stops coffee grinds flowing out of the grinder add intended can be described as 'not working'.
    Are you able to distinguish the difference between burrs jamming and grinder choking?
    Choking is when there is too much fine powder inside, and for whatever reason (usually clumping) blockage stops the grind exiting. Grinder inside fills up, nothing coming out. If constipation continues, eventually grinder stops.
    Jamming is when burrs are locked in place because there is a hard bean(s) wedged in between the burrs, and the motor cannot produce enough torque to break it and continue to rotate. This stops the whole machine. Some grinders, you can hear faint humming, others dead silent. Obviously, no sound because no movement, and no movement means no grinds coming out.
    This jamming sometimes happens when you rotate the dial towards finer too quickly, and not incrementally enough. It also easily happens with the slightest of grinding adjustments (movement towards finer) made while the grinder is stationary.
    You'll need at least 100g of beans for this.
    So let the machine continually grind beans when you move the adjusting ring to finer (gradually). Before reaching your desired fineness, if it stops, check the following. A) do you hear the motor running? When it stopped, did it make any other sound? If you hear any sound, please describe. B) did the flow of the grind exiting stop at the same time or before the grinder came to a halt? C) from the moment it stopped working, and here please define 'stopped' as in grind not exiting or motor stopped. Here, mark the dial where it was, then move the dial back to coarser by quite a bit. Does that resume, or is it still stopped? D) if step C was a yes, movement resumed, do grinds flow out immediately from that point?
    You see, that your grinder was working fine, dialed in at the shop; coupled with the fact that your beans are no where near under roasted, I cannot exclude operator error quite yet.
    Depending on the detailed feedback of when and how it fails, we can guesstimate which components maybe at fault.

    Leave a comment:


  • David8
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say your beans are underroasted.

    The grinder is struggling because the beans are so tough. The pour is (way too) fast despite significant overdosing because:
    a) you can't grind fine enough
    b) there isn't enough soluble material / CO2 in the beans (both of which are produced during roasting) to slow the flowrate down.
    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    It would certainly be worth eliminating the beans as the source of the problem (particularly given info provided in post #14 re the grinder working with Di Bella beans). Having said that, it would take a pretty severe under-roast to stop my old K3 from grinding.
    Beans are roasted to the verge of second crack, City+ to Full City. It has been a while since I roasted into second crack, but I believe this gave me problems as well. I will source some local beans and try again to eliminate this.

    Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Have been following this thread, and definitely what the guys said about the beans needs to be taken into account, but another thing occurred to me that I mentioned in another thread, have you unscrewed the grind adjustment 'stopper'?

    That little silver cap if you pop that open/off, there's a screw in there which leads down and blocks up against something, this actually prevents you from going finer (it's a safety mechanism really so people didn't go too fine and destroyed the burrs), but it's necessary to actually unscrew that in order to go finer, has this been done?

    I had to do this for my K3 Touch in order to adjust finer. Your grind does just seem a bit coarse, and if you're unable to go finer this may be it... otherwise it's another issue

    Edit: but yeah, I'm not sure about different machines and pressure buildup, but that also does seem a little slow to get up to 8 bar.. it may be a combination of issues, but the guys here are awesome so hopefully we can nut this out!
    I haven't removed the screw. It's not a physical stopper that's preventing me going finer, just the the grinder doesn't want to grind when I do get that fine...

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Have been following this thread, and definitely what the guys said about the beans needs to be taken into account, but another thing occurred to me that I mentioned in another thread, have you unscrewed the grind adjustment 'stopper'?

    That little silver cap if you pop that open/off, there's a screw in there which leads down and blocks up against something, this actually prevents you from going finer (it's a safety mechanism really so people didn't go too fine and destroyed the burrs), but it's necessary to actually unscrew that in order to go finer, has this been done?

    I had to do this for my K3 Touch in order to adjust finer. Your grind does just seem a bit coarse, and if you're unable to go finer this may be it... otherwise it's another issue

    Edit: but yeah, I'm not sure about different machines and pressure buildup, but that also does seem a little slow to get up to 8 bar.. it may be a combination of issues, but the guys here are awesome so hopefully we can nut this out!

    Leave a comment:


  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    It would certainly be worth eliminating the beans as the source of the problem (particularly given info provided in post #14 re the grinder working with Di Bella beans). Having said that, it would take a pretty severe under-roast to stop my old K3 from grinding.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say your beans are underroasted.

    The grinder is struggling because the beans are so tough. The pour is (way too) fast despite significant overdosing because:
    a) you can't grind fine enough
    b) there isn't enough soluble material / CO2 in the beans (both of which are produced during roasting) to slow the flowrate down.

    Leave a comment:


  • David8
    replied
    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
    It's obvious from the difference between the first and second picture that the puck is pressing into the shower screen, I can see the pattern of it around the 5c coin.

    This cannot be properly fixed without grinding finer and dosing lower. Reminds me of my first Breville Smart Grinder that was too coarse out of the box. There were things I could do to improve the shot, but nothing really fixed it until I shimmed the grinder. I was amazed how much less coffee I need to pack into the basket. As offers have said it might be the capacitor on the grinder motor. If you're handy with a soldering iron this will be the cheapest, quickest, and easiest fix. Even if it turns out not to be an issue it'll only have cost you a couple of dollars.

    I don't have any magic answers as to what needs to be done to your grinder, but from your photos and the extremely fast running shot in your video something is quite amiss.
    In the second video, can the faint whirring be heard? Would a capacitor issue cause this??

    Leave a comment:


  • David8
    replied
    Machine sits at 0bar while idling.

    In that shot the pressure very slowly climbed. Reached about 4bar, then I took the cup away. I left the shot running into the drip tray until the shot ran basically clear and the pressure continued to climb slowly until 8bar.

    This sounds very low?

    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    replied
    Originally posted by David8 View Post
    Okay. So I've attached photos of
    • 20g dose
    • 5c test (before)
    • 5c test after)
    • Resulting puck


    And I have uploaded videos of:
    The shot

    Then I went straight back to the grinder, without touching anything and pressed the grind lever:
    Link

    The first video is still uploading, so might not be live yet.
    It's obvious from the difference between the first and second picture that the puck is pressing into the shower screen, I can see the pattern of it around the 5c coin.

    This cannot be properly fixed without grinding finer and dosing lower. Reminds me of my first Breville Smart Grinder that was too coarse out of the box. There were things I could do to improve the shot, but nothing really fixed it until I shimmed the grinder. I was amazed how much less coffee I need to pack into the basket. As offers have said it might be the capacitor on the grinder motor. If you're handy with a soldering iron this will be the cheapest, quickest, and easiest fix. Even if it turns out not to be an issue it'll only have cost you a couple of dollars.

    I don't have any magic answers as to what needs to be done to your grinder, but from your photos and the extremely fast running shot in your video something is quite amiss.

    Leave a comment:


  • David8
    replied
    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Looks overdosed and too coarse. The overdose may be causing the puck to fracture (though not obvious from 4th pic)
    I cannot go finer, this is my problem.

    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    What is the pressure gauge on the left of your machine measuring? Where does that sit when idling?
    I'll get back to you on this.

    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Might be a capacitor problem on the grinder. I take it that the burrs have been removed and refitted (from the location of the silver knob on the adjustment collar you'd be miles away from the espresso zone on my k3
    Yes

    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    ....but I appreciate that not all are set up the same). Are you sure they are 'flush'?
    Pretty sure...

    Leave a comment:


  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    Looks overdosed and too coarse. The overdose may be causing the puck to fracture (though not obvious from 4th pic)

    What is the pressure gauge on the left of your machine measuring? Where does that sit when idling?

    Might be a capacitor problem on the grinder. I take it that the burrs have been removed and refitted (from the location of the silver knob on the adjustment collar you'd be miles away from the espresso zone on my k3....but I appreciate that not all are set up the same). Are you sure they are 'flush'?
    Last edited by Barry O'Speedwagon; 22 October 2017, 01:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • David8
    replied
    Okay. So I've attached photos of
    • 20g dose
    • 5c test (before)
    • 5c test after)
    • Resulting puck


    And I have uploaded videos of:
    The shot

    Then I went straight back to the grinder, without touching anything and pressed the grind lever:
    Link

    The first video is still uploading, so might not be live yet.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    replied
    Just as a reference point, this is my standard 20g dose in my 18g VST:

    Click image for larger version

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    And this is a 22g dose in my 18g VST basket, same grind setting (which at 22g would probably not quite choke the shot completely, but there would be maybe 10-12 drops in 30s, completely burnt shot):

    Click image for larger version

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    Yes 10mm vertical sides on the Pullman Barista tamper. Machine is a Breville BES920. Don't know the shower screen depth off the top of my head, but I think I remember reading it's relatively high compared to more traditional machines like E61s.
    Last edited by level3ninja; 22 October 2017, 08:11 AM. Reason: Pics fix

    Leave a comment:


  • Mb21
    replied
    Originally posted by level3ninja
    Just add a reference point, this is my standard 20g dose in my 18g VST:
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]17379[/ATTACH]
    Out of interest does the Pullman tamper have a 10mm high piston?
    what machine are you using? Do you know the shower screen depth of the machine?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    Agreed! It also looks quite coarse.

    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    replied
    I'm not one to speak in absolutes, but that can't not be too high!

    Leave a comment:

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