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  • #31
    Originally posted by Azzabee View Post
    Ha! Ok ok, I get it. K.I.S.S.

    Almost sounds like batting advice - nice high elbow, eye over the ball..!
    Yeah sorry to be a bit facetious, but most of the stuff in this thread so far has been pretty useless. The KISS principle will see you go far, although I do understand your frustration.

    There’s lots of things that Matt Perger has done that I’m not a huge fan of, however his approach to espresso extraction is spot on:
    1. Choose your dose - usually something close to the nominal dose for the basket you’re using. It sounds like the Bezzera baskets are either 16 or 18g? This is probably a good range to work in anyway.
    2. Pick your yield - a brew ratio of 1:2 is common and not a bad starting point. (Personally I’m closer to 1:1.5, but that’s just how I like my home roasted coffee made). So for a 16g dose you’re looking for a 30-32g yield for starters.
    3. Adjust your grind - so that you achieve your chosen yield in around 30secs from when you flick the switch. Again, this will depend on personal taste and the coffee you’re using. I’ve had excellent espressos across a range from about 20secs up to about 50secs.

    Spend some time getting this right and completely ignore ‘donuting’ or puck analysis, but taste everything. When you get within these parameters you can fine tune with distribution and grind and looking for ‘donuting’ might help. It should be one of the last things you use to assess where you’re at, not one of the first.
    Finally, get a better tamper. You don’t need to spend hundreds on a Barber or Pullman or Pesado, but getting something a bit wider might help (with a heavy emphasis on the might). This is not a promotion as I’ve never tried one myself, but the Barista Hustle tampers are relatively cheap and even if you decide you don’t like it could be a way to eliminate the tamper as the issue.
    Good luck in your quest for espresso Nirvana.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Azzabee View Post
      Would you suggest splitting the grind in 2 - half dose, then tap down, second half, level and tamp?
      No. [emoji6]

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
        Yeah sorry to be a bit facetious, but most of the stuff in this thread so far has been pretty useless. The KISS principle will see you go far, although I do understand your frustration.

        There’s lots of things that Matt Perger has done that I’m not a huge fan of, however his approach to espresso extraction is spot on:
        1. Choose your dose - usually something close to the nominal dose for the basket you’re using. It sounds like the Bezzera baskets are either 16 or 18g? This is probably a good range to work in anyway.
        2. Pick your yield - a brew ratio of 1:2 is common and not a bad starting point. (Personally I’m closer to 1:1.5, but that’s just how I like my home roasted coffee made). So for a 16g dose you’re looking for a 30-32g yield for starters.
        3. Adjust your grind - so that you achieve your chosen yield in around 30secs from when you flick the switch. Again, this will depend on personal taste and the coffee you’re using. I’ve had excellent espressos across a range from about 20secs up to about 50secs.

        Spend some time getting this right and completely ignore ‘donuting’ or puck analysis, but taste everything. When you get within these parameters you can fine tune with distribution and grind and looking for ‘donuting’ might help. It should be one of the last things you use to assess where you’re at, not one of the first.
        Finally, get a better tamper. You don’t need to spend hundreds on a Barber or Pullman or Pesado, but getting something a bit wider might help (with a heavy emphasis on the might). This is not a promotion as I’ve never tried one myself, but the Barista Hustle tampers are relatively cheap and even if you decide you don’t like it could be a way to eliminate the tamper as the issue.
        Good luck in your quest for espresso Nirvana.
        Great advice, however I think everyone's contributions have been very helpful and supportive, and not useless at all.

        Definitely good to get first things first and work from there, also helps develop your palette better working from here, and having taste as the reference point.

        Comment


        • #34
          Yeah sorry to be a bit facetious, but most of the stuff in this thread so far has been pretty useless.
          Thanks mate...

          Mal.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Dimal View Post
            Thanks mate...

            Mal.
            Not including your post of course Mal. ;-P

            Comment


            • #36
              Not just mine mate...

              Mal.

              Comment


              • #37
                I guess it would be hard for some to hear the same old questions over and over. For this I am sorry. But remember, we all have to learn somehow, how we do it is of course subjective.

                This week I’ve spoken to two different establishments that offer Barista training. Both said to me - “we can’t offer much more than you already know. Keep experimenting and let us know how you get on.”

                So here I am, reading, deciphering the coffee code, experimenting, listening to all the advice and trying to make sense of it. So please, keep it coming. Have a laugh at my attempts if you will, but remember the journey you took on your way to espresso nirvana! This is part of mine...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Bloody Doughnut!

                  Originally posted by Dimal View Post
                  Not just mine mate...

                  Mal.
                  Totally agree, I did say ‘most’ not ‘all’. And I don’t want to pick on anyone so hopefully my second post makes it clear where I stand and helps the OP a bit.
                  I will say this just to sort of elaborate on what I’m on about - Generally speaking I would disagree with most of the points Antony has made in this thread. After spending quite a bit of time down the over dose and under grind path when I had my first Gaggia Classic I would have to say that the way I approach espresso extraction these days gives me a better outcome. That being to keep the dose close to, or even under the nominal dose for the particular basket you’re using which should keep the coffee bed well away from the shower screen. Without going into too much detail I’ve found I get better results from this sort of approach especially on a machine that has preinfusion. If this results in a wet puck then that’s no problem as long as the espresso tasted good. The caveat to this is that Antony is far more experienced than I am and actually knows the machine in question. So I’m totally prepared to accept that everything he has said might be spot on and I would urge the OP to keep experimenting, but not get too distracted by things like the appearance of the puck afterwards as it should be the results in the cup that are the deciding factor.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Azzabee View Post
                    I guess it would be hard for some to hear the same old questions over and over. For this I am sorry. But remember, we all have to learn somehow, how we do it is of course subjective.

                    This week I’ve spoken to two different establishments that offer Barista training. Both said to me - “we can’t offer much more than you already know. Keep experimenting and let us know how you get on.”

                    So here I am, reading, deciphering the coffee code, experimenting, listening to all the advice and trying to make sense of it. So please, keep it coming. Have a laugh at my attempts if you will, but remember the journey you took on your way to espresso nirvana! This is part of mine...
                    You have absolutely nothing to be sorry about mate. Exactly right, and your questions are specific to YOUR situation, stage in the journey, equipment etc, there can't always be blanket answers given to cover everything. Of course basic principles, but it's always great to get the whole scope of what you're using and how. And not only that, but just how incredibly helpful it is to others facing similar issues, who can read and learn from it. It shows what different processes we can undertake to get results.

                    And I know there have been many times when I've been stuck with something, and I spaaaaaammed that search function hard haha but just couldn't find a solution there so had to ask. And I think it's great to encourage that exploration and questioning, I've seen it posted many a time from a new member that they were quite intimidated to post as they didn't want to be ripped down (starting with "please go easy on me..."). For people to be coming from that place and have it reinforced and confirmed to them that that's how they should be living, imagine what that does to selfconfidence down the line and on a daily basis...
                    I don't think that's a healthy sort of environment, and I think it's great to promote a culture of welcoming and openness where we can encourage even things many are 'scared' to ask.

                    And heck I've also learned as a result of the thread you've made as well, so I feel we all contribute to everyone's development.

                    Anyways! Keep playing, and please let us know how it's all going

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
                      Totally agree, I did say ‘most’ not ‘all’. And I don’t want to pick on anyone so hopefully my second post makes it clear where I stand and helps the OP a bit.
                      I will say this just to sort of elaborate on what I’m on about - Generally speaking I would disagree with most of the points Antony has made in this thread. After spending quite a bit of time down the over dose and under grind path when I had my first Gaggia Classic I would have to say that the way I approach espresso extraction these days gives me a better outcome. That being to keep the dose close to, or even under the nominal dose for the particular basket you’re using which should keep the coffee bed well away from the shower screen. Without going into too much detail I’ve found I get better results from this sort of approach especially on a machine that has preinfusion. If this results in a wet puck then that’s no problem as long as the espresso tasted good. The caveat to this is that Antony is far more experienced than I am and actually knows the machine in question. So I’m totally prepared to accept that everything he has said might be spot on and I would urge the OP to keep experimenting, but not get too distracted by things like the appearance of the puck afterwards as it should be the results in the cup that are the deciding factor.
                      Very well said bud

                      I think it's great and really helpful to know where we're coming from and why for sure, it definitely adds to depth and understanding for the OP and everyone

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        All good points from everyone and if it works for your machine and you then that is the most important thing.

                        The two points i had made where that there appeared to be under dosing and that it is OK if the coffee bed touches (just) the shower screen.

                        In my books the basic advice we give to anyone with a new machine (and knowing the BZ10 well as one of our best sellers) is the best starting point is to get your dose right. Its just a basic starting point when someone is learning. A wet puck on the BZ10 generally shows under dosing. With under dosing you are generally more likely to get channelling.

                        With the coffee bed touching the screen, ideally it should be just on, but this is sometimes hard to judge.

                        In the last picture from the OP you can see the ridge line in the basket. The BZ10 needs to be dosed so that you are on or just over this line ( I am assuming Bezzera baskets are being used)

                        What i will say is that a few years ago i spent a lot of time with the head tech from Nuova Simonelli when they were introducing their new Aurelia and demonstrating their new pre infusion system. They went through all sorts of scenarios with dose, tamping, no tamping and using the shower screen to tamp the coffee as the handle was locked in.

                        I was very very surprised by the results and it certainly changed my opinion on the tamping/touching the shower screen debate. I have touched on this in other threads.

                        My suggestion to the OP would be to get onto the phone to your retailer and talk it through, they will know your machine and you can probably address many of your questions relatively quickly.

                        Cheers

                        Antony
                        www.casaespresso.com.au
                        Last edited by Casa Espresso; 27 October 2017, 06:24 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Casa Espresso View Post
                          In the last picture from the OP you can see the ridge line in the basket. The BZ10 needs to be dosed so that you are on or just over this line ( I am assuming Bezzera baskets are being used)

                          My suggestion to the OP would be to get onto the phone to your retailer and talk it through, they will know your machine and you can probably address many of your questions relatively quickly.
                          Hi Antony, I use the supplied 16g Bezzera basket, it touches the screen when I have 18.4g+ in the basket - but only on the outer edge, and not the centre. You can see the in-print on the second photo from yesterday, with 18.4g. All my pucks come out with a slight dome in the centre.

                          I called the place of purchase last week and didn't get great advice. The person I spoke to didn't sound very knowledgeable with the machine, or pulling shots for that matter! When I started talking dosing amounts she went quiet and simply said to add grind until the basket is full, strike off and pull, because that's the way they do it in the office...

                          I might try again and explain the unevenness of the shower screen. Surely this isn't normal?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                            You have absolutely nothing to be sorry about mate. Exactly right, and your questions are specific to YOUR situation, stage in the journey, equipment etc, there can't always be blanket answers given to cover everything. Of course basic principles, but it's always great to get the whole scope of what you're using and how. And not only that, but just how incredibly helpful it is to others facing similar issues, who can read and learn from it. It shows what different processes we can undertake to get results.

                            And I know there have been many times when I've been stuck with something, and I spaaaaaammed that search function hard haha but just couldn't find a solution there so had to ask. And I think it's great to encourage that exploration and questioning, I've seen it posted many a time from a new member that they were quite intimidated to post as they didn't want to be ripped down (starting with "please go easy on me..."). For people to be coming from that place and have it reinforced and confirmed to them that that's how they should be living, imagine what that does to selfconfidence down the line and on a daily basis...
                            I don't think that's a healthy sort of environment, and I think it's great to promote a culture of welcoming and openness where we can encourage even things many are 'scared' to ask.

                            And heck I've also learned as a result of the thread you've made as well, so I feel we all contribute to everyone's development.

                            Anyways! Keep playing, and please let us know how it's all going
                            Thanks, will keep pouring grinds down the sink! (but drinking the liquid gold of course!)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Today's pulls were at 18.1g and about 3/4 of the range of micro adjustment finer. The doughnut was there, but not as long as the previous pulls. The volume was down on what I'm used to, but the taste was good. The shots had to be pulled for 30-35 seconds to get it past ristretto. There was a slight lingering of burnt flavour at the finish - tamp too hard? I'm really not giving it much effort at all, the tamp drops under its weight, then a slight push. I could compress it harder if I tried for sure.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Azzabee View Post
                                Today's pulls were at 18.1g and about 3/4 of the range of micro adjustment finer. The doughnut was there, but not as long as the previous pulls. The volume was down on what I'm used to, but the taste was good. The shots had to be pulled for 30-35 seconds to get it past ristretto. There was a slight lingering of burnt flavour at the finish - tamp too hard? I'm really not giving it much effort at all, the tamp drops under its weight, then a slight push. I could compress it harder if I tried for sure.
                                Firstly, puckology is an absolutely useless study unless you spot major channeling. Wet, dry, sloppy pucks - meh! How did it taste?

                                BTW, tapping post tamp is an utter no-no (creates channels).

                                The main problem I see on all of your photos is more basic - your particle spread is poor. Someone up there suggested you try a different grinder - that would be my first step if I saw grounds that uneven. No way would that spread be consistent so you are running around in circles & chasing your tail as a result.

                                TampIt

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