Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

5c rest or basket label

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 5c rest or basket label

    Just interested in everyone’s thoughts.

    I have the Pullman 17-19g basket but to dose it to get the 5c test to just leave something noticeable I’m dosing 22g and still getting a good pour (40ml in 32seconds).

    I can grind finer and go to 18 or 20 grams and get the same outputs (36ml in 32 seconds) but it feels as half the basket is empty.

    Although not worried when doing 18-20g it always leaves a soggy wet puck.

    Both still achieve a good shot. So I’m torn.

    Cheers

  • #2
    I generally disregard the recommendation.. sometimes it's a good ballpark figure to go by, other times not really.

    5c test seems more accurate.

    And that's the thing, different roast depths fill the basket differently in terms of volume:mass. Darker roasts will fill the basket with more volume at lower mass, lighter roasts you'll be able to fit more in mass-wise.

    Some darker roasts I've been unable to up the dose any higher than 19.5g, whereas lighter roasts I've easily managed 23g in the same basket.

    But interested in what others say regarding the range recommendation

    But taste is always, always the most reliable indicator. Some people do dose alot lower and swear by it, others dose to the max that they can without channelling happening.

    Comment


    • #3
      Great point. I hadn’t considered dark v light roast.

      Comment


      • #4
        The important thing about the 5c test is that the coffee puck swells with water and can press against the shower screen. This can lead to 2 things, poorer shot quality as the coffee can't swell like it should and leave residue on the shower screen.

        Best if you can eliminate it with either a larger basket or less dose/finer grind.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Rusty888
          what machine are you using, ECM Tech? Wondering how deep the shower screen is ie what headroom is there?

          my Oscar 2 has 10mm of headroom from memory and I’m using the Pullman 20-22g basket and dose 21.5-22g normally

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
            I generally disregard the recommendation.. sometimes it's a good ballpark figure to go by, other times not really.

            5c test seems more accurate.

            And that's the thing, different roast depths fill the basket differently in terms of volume:mass. Darker roasts will fill the basket with more volume at lower mass, lighter roasts you'll be able to fit more in mass-wise.

            Some darker roasts I've been unable to up the dose any higher than 19.5g, whereas lighter roasts I've easily managed 23g in the same basket.

            But interested in what others say regarding the range recommendation

            But taste is always, always the most reliable indicator. Some people do dose alot lower and swear by it, others dose to the max that they can without channelling happening.
            G'day simonsk8r

            Two quick "myth dispersal" points
            1) The 5c test has probably created more awful coffee outcomes than damn near any other myth. Arguably excepting the other semi traditional / "presumably enshrined in stone on some mountain somewhere" "4 to 11 day post roast" myth - which only applies to fairly dark roasts / high solubility / low density beans. Reality check here - as partially already stated in this thread: roast solubility and density varies according to the actual bean varietal, the type of processing and the roast depth. IMO at least 25% range each side of the "average" of 100%. Quite a variable thickness needed for the humble American nickel - which is where this particular myth seems to have originated.

            2) Puckology would have to be the most worthless "art" in the trade. All it is good for is demonstrating whether really bad channeling has occurred - and often it does not even show it that well anyway. Wet or dry - meh. Some machines actually have a slow turn off to try to prevent too much clogging of their showerscreens so they always drop a few ml of low pressure water after the shot is "finished". Other machines stop on a knife edge and still have wet pucks when the shot finishes (partially depends on grind texture, and almost certainly a whole batch of other items I have never bothered to look into). One quick other puck point - if it falls apart when leaving the basket then the shot will taste like crap anyway so the setup is wrong (so wrong...) that it needs a proper setup. The pour (which is much more critical) would tell you that long before the shot is finished anyway. Puckology: Utterly useless.

            Weighing your dose and being within recommended range is usually a good idea to help set up your grinder to get the best out of whatever bean is in front of you. Then taste is the beginning, middle and final arbiter when judging your craft.

            TampIt
            Last edited by TampIt; 23 May 2018, 02:02 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TampIt View Post
              G'day simonsk8r

              Two quick "myth dispersal" points
              1) The 5c test has probably created more awful coffee outcomes than damn near any other myth. Arguably excepting the other semi traditional / "presumably enshrined in stone on some mountain somewhere" "4 to 11 day post roast" myth - which only applies to fairly dark roasts / high solubility / low density beans. Reality check here - as partially already stated in this thread: roast solubility and density varies according to the actual bean varietal, the type of processing and the roast depth. IMO at least 25% range each side of the "average" of 100%. Quite a variable thickness needed for the humble American nickel - which is where this particular myth seems to have originated.

              2) Puckology would have to be the most worthless "art" in the trade. All it is good for is demonstrating whether really bad channeling has occurred - and often it does not even show it that well anyway. Wet or dry - meh. Some machines actually have a slow turn off to try to prevent too much clogging of their showerscreens so they always drop a few ml of low pressure water after the shot is "finished". Other machines stop on a knife edge and still have wet pucks when the shot finishes (partially depends on grind texture, and almost certainly a whole batch of other items I have never bothered to look into). One quick other puck point - if it falls apart when leaving the basket then the shot will taste like crap anyway so the setup is wrong (so wrong...) that it needs a proper setup. The pour (which is much more critical) would tell you that long before the shot is finished anyway. Puckology: Utterly useless.

              Weighing your dose and being within recommended range is usually a good idea to help set up your grinder to get the best out of whatever bean is in front of you. Then taste is the beginning, middle and final arbiter when judging your craft.

              TampIt
              G'day , appreciate your thoughts TampIt.

              Hmm, I don't see how the 5c test has caused the massive disaster that you've claimed... care to elaborate? How could it? It's a really good general guide to help prevent overdosing the basket (and show if you're perhaps underdosing a bit, which to me is not as crucial) and getting a fairly good gauge as to a good level to stick with in the basket. Especially for people starting out, if you can set the dose and standardise that, then you can focus on what really matters, the grind size (and of course good distribution within the basket). Just uncertain how it's vehemently seen as NOT a good practice...

              And for sure the recommended range they list for baskets can be a good guide, and of course weighing your dose, that's what I generally recommend with the 5c test. Not just using the coin, but measuring the dose prior so that you can stick with that dose for that particular bean. And yes roast depth changes the dose level, so it makes sense with a particular bean to use the test to standardise your dose and not play around too much with it. The other things (varietal, processing) I'm not sure if they really need to be focused on when setting your dose..


              I never actually mentioned puckology (the practice of observing and analysing a puck after extraction), not once, so not sure why that's being brought up?

              That's sorta why I mentioned to use the 5c test as it can avoid all the obsessiveness about how the puck looks after the extraction..

              With all due respect, sorta sounds like you're wanting to vent some frustrations bringing up points that weren't really talked about... which is cool, but didn't see the relevance.. just trying to understand here.

              Comment


              • #8
                Establish & Know your Shot Recipe

                To address the Question originally asked ....
                Adopt the...... Nominal Weight as stated by the Basket Manufacturer (OEM / Aftermarket?) ....OR
                Test the Machine and establish what dose 'level' can & will work (consistently) ?

                As in what height to set the Puck up at? Or what gap to leave for the Heat Sink /
                Shower screen to protrude down into the basket, once locked away?

                Well yes I adopt the 5cTest. Makes good sense to me, from the day I first read of it, on Here.
                Do I throw a coin on top (of the puck) every time I do a shot, & lock off the G/Handle. Nup. (Obv)

                I may have only done it 1/2doz times in total. (In reality more than that, but not to sound like a total gumby).
                But its there in my 'kit bag' in my 'Barista tools' if I choose to use it.
                To me its a one off test / measure as part of my shot recipe.
                As I choose to set it up, when new equipment first comes into play.
                Definitely not done daily!

                But i did (originally) waste that dose by tipping it out And Weighing it. Same As, before I do that, I used my
                tamper to show me What is the 'headspace' required so that the showerscreen does not disturb my puck....as I set it up. A good quality Tamper is whats required here.

                Bingo that's all it is. Nothing more or less.
                So in effect I DO use it daily...but I 'just invert the whole concept' and use the Tamper Shoulder to show a final
                set point, post tamp.

                And After I've worked to a pre-established dose weight. Or quantity (spoon measure if no scales avail.)

                Of course This is just a part of my 'recipe' that I find delivers consistency. And as with the other inputs a practised Barista will beaver away with their recipe till they achieve consistently the good shot flavours they appreciate.
                As said in previous responses above... its all down to tasting the shot. Let that be your guide.
                Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 23 May 2018, 02:54 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Seems Tampit is feeling a little contrary again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
                    Seems Tampit is feeling a little contrary again.
                    I just get amused when people pontificate with contradictions.....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                      G'day , appreciate your thoughts TampIt.

                      Hmm, I don't see how the 5c test has caused the massive disaster that you've claimed... care to elaborate? How could it? It's a really good general guide to help prevent overdosing the basket (and show if you're perhaps underdosing a bit, which to me is not as crucial) and getting a fairly good gauge as to a good level to stick with in the basket. Especially for people starting out, if you can set the dose and standardise that, then you can focus on what really matters, the grind size (and of course good distribution within the basket). Just uncertain how it's vehemently seen as NOT a good practice...

                      And for sure the recommended range they list for baskets can be a good guide, and of course weighing your dose, that's what I generally recommend with the 5c test. Not just using the coin, but measuring the dose prior so that you can stick with that dose for that particular bean. And yes roast depth changes the dose level, so it makes sense with a particular bean to use the test to standardise your dose and not play around too much with it. The other things (varietal, processing) I'm not sure if they really need to be focused on when setting your dose..


                      I never actually mentioned puckology (the practice of observing and analysing a puck after extraction), not once, so not sure why that's being brought up?

                      That's sorta why I mentioned to use the 5c test as it can avoid all the obsessiveness about how the puck looks after the extraction..

                      With all due respect, sorta sounds like you're wanting to vent some frustrations bringing up points that weren't really talked about... which is cool, but didn't see the relevance.. just trying to understand here.
                      Tampit is replying to the thread and OP as well as you. It was the OP that mentioned a soggy puck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Weigh it, or time it, put it in the PF and spread it with your finger. Tamp and pull lever god shots.

                        Oh wait.......that’s waaaay too old school......sigh

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Erimus View Post
                          Tampit is replying to the thread and OP as well as you. It was the OP that mentioned a soggy puck.
                          Ah yep true, didn't realise that, as the way the post was written it seemed more directed, but fair call

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
                            Weigh it, or time it, put it in the PF and spread it with your finger. Tamp and pull lever god shots.

                            Oh wait.......that’s waaaay too old school......sigh
                            Yep! it's as simple as that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                              G'day , appreciate your thoughts TampIt.

                              Hmm, I don't see how the 5c test has caused the massive disaster that you've claimed... care to elaborate? How could it? It's a really good general guide to help prevent overdosing the basket (and show if you're perhaps underdosing a bit, which to me is not as crucial) and getting a fairly good gauge as to a good level to stick with in the basket. Especially for people starting out, if you can set the dose and standardise that, then you can focus on what really matters, the grind size (and of course good distribution within the basket). Just uncertain how it's vehemently seen as NOT a good practice...

                              And for sure the recommended range they list for baskets can be a good guide, and of course weighing your dose, that's what I generally recommend with the 5c test. Not just using the coin, but measuring the dose prior so that you can stick with that dose for that particular bean. And yes roast depth changes the dose level, so it makes sense with a particular bean to use the test to standardise your dose and not play around too much with it. The other things (varietal, processing) I'm not sure if they really need to be focused on when setting your dose..


                              I never actually mentioned puckology (the practice of observing and analysing a puck after extraction), not once, so not sure why that's being brought up?

                              That's sorta why I mentioned to use the 5c test as it can avoid all the obsessiveness about how the puck looks after the extraction..

                              With all due respect, sorta sounds like you're wanting to vent some frustrations bringing up points that weren't really talked about... which is cool, but didn't see the relevance.. just trying to understand here.
                              5 cent test is used as an 11th commandment far too often. Over too many years I have found a lot of variance in the basket to grouphead clearance of some commercial machines - or even the clearance within each group of a multiple group machine for that matter - e.g. the one I learnt on originally, where I colour coded the matching basket / p/f / group combos which could actually give a decent cuppa after grinding some of the lugs of the p/f's to fit a specific grouphead. Thankfully most machines today have much finer tolerances.

                              In an ideal world that clearance would be a standard, or at the very least it would be stated. As long as the fully expanded puck touches the showerscreen without impacting it "too much" (whatever that means in practice) the dosage / grind / tamping combo is more likely to work well. Given the variance in density, solubility and volume, that is a moving target on any given machine anyway. As the shot progresses the puck then shrinks again which makes it a difficult problem to even troubleshoot in some environments - especially in highly soluble cases when "in the zone" shots always have wettish pucks anyway so it may appear underdosed. Back to taste...

                              I have no problem with people using any method to get somewhere "within the zone" of a good shot. Unfortunately the 5 cent test seems to have become a hard and fast mantra in too many cases. IMO staying within the baskets rating range in grams is usually a better starting point than the 5 cent test before fine tuning according to taste. Not overdosing usually also means far less daily (hourly in busy cafes) maintenance as the showerscreens stay cleaner for longer. Underdosing is usually not a problem as most wannabee baristas usually "fill 'er up", however an underdosed shot always fails the most rudimentary taste test.

                              As already stated by a few others the soggy puck thing was the OP. I added it because I was referring to the whole earlier thread and it is another of my pet peeves. I should have made that clearer - sorry 'bout the confusion it caused you.

                              If I had $5 for every stuff up caused by either of those two myths in sites I have sorted over the years I would be quite a lot richer.

                              Enjoy your cuppa, all else is secondary.

                              TampIt

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X