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Is my grinder or my machine dodgy? [extraction time/volume] Video attached

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  • Is my grinder or my machine dodgy? [extraction time/volume] Video attached

    Hey guys
    TLDR- 120 ml extracted in 25 seconds with 3 shims installed.

    I made a new thread because I've narrowed the issue down a bit more.
    Can you please help me, I'm at my wits end.

    I have a brand new Breville Dual Boiler and a 2 year old Breville Dose Control Pro that worked fine for me Sunbeam EM7000, and beans roasted 5 days ago dosing 18g.
    On the Dose Control Pros finest setting it was still extracting 150 ml in 25 seconds (1/60 on the dial and 1/10 on the burr setting).

    I found the shims I ordered ages ago and installed 2 of them as per the instructions and worked my way down through grind settings to number 1 with little difference.
    I added a 3rd shim and settings 1-15 the burrs would touch. I ground on grind 15 and dosed 18g and ended up getting 120 ml in 25 seconds with 5 bars.
    There is literally no way my grind could be finer, What is going on!? (20g touches the shower screen).

    I'd really appreciate some help.

    Video showing my technique and my grind

    Highish res pictures of the burrs and I peer (impeller looks to be needing replacement soon but I don't think that affects the grind)
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dNNDB9F

    Thank you.
    Last edited by science-teacher; 21 June 2018, 07:31 PM.

  • #2
    I watched your video, your technique looks OK, but, how much pressure are you using while tamping?
    It looks to me like you are only tamping with light pressure.

    A good staring point is 30 pounds ~ 15kg tamping pressure.
    Bathroom scales are good to get the "feel" of a 30 pound tamp.

    If you are tamping with light pressure (a lot lighter than 30 pounds), then a heavier tamp should result in getting about 60ml in 30 seconds, which is right in the ballpark.

    Give it a go!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by topshot View Post
      I watched your video, your technique looks OK, but, how much pressure are you using while tamping?
      It looks to me like you are only tamping with light pressure.

      A good staring point is 30 pounds ~ 15kg tamping pressure.
      Bathroom scales are good to get the "feel" of a 30 pound tamp.

      If you are tamping with light pressure (a lot lighter than 30 pounds), then a heavier tamp should result in getting about 60ml in 30 seconds, which is right in the ballpark.

      Give it a go!
      Thanks mate I'll give it a try, however during testing yesterday tamping as hard as I could did nothing.

      Comment


      • #4
        Few things.

        The puck is sloppy which usually means not grinding fine enough. Did you make sure the burrs are seating/put back together properly? Is there anything like old beans etc in the grind chamber that mean the burrs won't sit quite right after you installed the shims?

        Pressure looks good but the flow is way too fast. You did get some crema so that suggests a good temp/pressure range.

        One way to test if it is the grinder is to get some freshly ground beans. Go to your local Cafe and buy a bag and get them to grind maybe 100/200g for you. If your shot is better that could indicate that it is the grind. It won't be quite right for your machine, but hopefully it will be ballpark like 10-50mls in 30 sec.
        Or see if you can borrow a grinder from someone.

        Also make sure you are using fresh beans and not supermarket stuff. The supermarket stuff can be months old. Cafes or a local roaster usually not more than a month and it can make a HUGE difference.

        Edit: make sure the cafe or roaster grinds them fresh (in front of you) and use them as soon as possible - hopefully within the hour. If you wait a day or two they will go stale and won't tell you much.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
          Few things.

          The puck is sloppy which usually means not grinding fine enough. Did you make sure the burrs are seating/put back together properly? Is there anything like old beans etc in the grind chamber that mean the burrs won't sit quite right after you installed the shims?

          Pressure looks good but the flow is way too fast. You did get some crema so that suggests a good temp/pressure range.

          One way to test if it is the grinder is to get some freshly ground beans. Go to your local Cafe and buy a bag and get them to grind maybe 100/200g for you. If your shot is better that could indicate that it is the grind. It won't be quite right for your machine, but hopefully it will be ballpark like 10-50mls in 30 sec.
          Or see if you can borrow a grinder from someone.

          Also make sure you are using fresh beans and not supermarket stuff. The supermarket stuff can be months old. Cafes or a local roaster usually not more than a month and it can make a HUGE difference.
          Hey Beans
          I would have assumed sloppy meant water wasnt getting through but your diagnosis is obviously consistent with my experience.
          Definately all good in the burrs, they squeaky clean as per the pics. Dismantled multiple times.

          I will have to go to a cafe tomorrow and ask them to grind some for me.
          Unfortunately I'm in a town of 3000 and noone I know really does their own coffee in regards to borrowing a grinder.

          Yeah definately fresh bought from a reputable roaster

          Thanks for your thoughts

          Comment


          • #6
            I think you need to bite the bullet and invest in a better grinder. I agree that the grind is not fine enough. A quick read of reviews of your grinder indicate others have struggled with grinding for espresso and that the impeller wears out quickly (< 2 yrs).
            Treat yourself to a good quality grinder. They will last longer and your coffee enjoyment will be much greater. You can pick up a Compak K3 or Macap M2M for around $500 delivered. There are other brands at a similar price like the Rancilio Rocky, Baratza Sette, etc.
            Last edited by flynnaus; 21 June 2018, 09:56 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Stop over thinking it. If you’ve got your dose and extraction time set and your yield is too high you need to adjust the grind, simple as that. If it won’t go any finer then something else is affecting the grinders ability to get a suitably fine grind. That could be anything from stale coffee to incorrect assembly of the burr housing. Is it definitely the ‘Pro’ model grinder you have? If so there’s an adjustment on the upper burr carrier. What have you got this set to? The Dose Control ‘Pro’ works best with just one, maybe two shims and the upper burr adjustment used to achieve the correct grind range. I have also heard that worn impellers and burrs are a problem on the Dose Control, which is otherwise quite a good value grinder.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
                Stop over thinking it. If you’ve got your dose and extraction time set and your yield is too high you need to adjust the grind, simple as that. If it won’t go any finer then something else is affecting the grinders ability to get a suitably fine grind. That could be anything from stale coffee to incorrect assembly of the burr housing. Is it definitely the ‘Pro’ model grinder you have? If so there’s an adjustment on the upper burr carrier. What have you got this set to? The Dose Control ‘Pro’ works best with just one, maybe two shims and the upper burr adjustment used to achieve the correct grind range. I have also heard that worn impellers and burrs are a problem on the Dose Control, which is otherwise quite a good value grinder.
                Hi LeroyC
                That's why I'm pretty PO'd

                I've tested it 3x now with disassembly and reassembly so I don't think it is that.
                The coffee is definately fresh, roasted 17th of June.
                Yeah definately pro,yes the upper burr carrier is 1/10 (finest), and i tried from about setting 30 down to 1 with 2 shims in before adding a 3rd shim.

                The impeller looks worn but not dead yet, I don't really know how to tell if burrs are worn, I've got pics here https://imgur.com/gallery/dNNDB9F
                Can I buy new burrs? or is that not a thing?

                Thanks mate, any help is appreciated heaps.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by flynnaus View Post
                  I think you need to bite the bullet and invest in a better grinder. I agree that the grind is not fine enough. A quick read of reviews of your grinder indicate others have struggled with grinding for espresso and that the impeller wears out quickly (< 2 yrs).
                  Treat yourself to a good quality grinder. They will last longer and your coffee enjoyment will be much greater. You can pick up a Compak K3 or Macap M2M for around $500 delivered. There are other brands at a similar price like the Rancilio Rocky, Baratza Sette, etc.
                  Thanks mate, I'm all but sold on the sette 270W but its just not in the budget

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by science-teacher View Post
                    Highish res pictures of the burrs and I peer (impeller looks to be needing replacement soon but I don't think that affects the grind)
                    https://imgur.com/gallery/dNNDB9F
                    In my opinion both the inner and outer burrs are worn out.
                    A better grinder would certainly help but if you can't stretch to that, a new set of burrs is definitely required...

                    Maybe consider a decent manual grinder until you can afford the Sette or something even better...

                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dimal View Post
                      In my opinion both the inner and outer burrs are worn out.
                      A better grinder would certainly help but if you can't stretch to that, a new set of burrs is definitely required...

                      Maybe consider a decent manual grinder until you can afford the Sette or something even better...

                      Mal.
                      Hey Dimal.

                      Thanks mate, i appreciate your opinion.
                      It is my udnerstanding breville only replace the top burr so a new grinder that has both replacable would be the way to go.
                      Should I consider anything other than the sette?
                      I had a eureka atom but i have 1 coffee every other day so the atom had too much retention and was diffuclt to single dose.

                      Can you think of anything that fits my needs? I like the Rok but grinding for 70 seconds is toooo long

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You won't wear burrs out on a grinder like this in 2 years, they're pretty tough and will last many more years.

                        The coffee machine delivers pressure to the coffee puck solely based on the resistance to flow through the puck. More resistance = more pressure. You get more resistance by either grinding finer or upping the dose.
                        18g is a suitable dose so that leaves you with grinding finer.

                        To get a grind suitable for espresso on a burr grinder like this, they do need to be very nearly touching if not touching a little bit.

                        I would suggest to just keep going finer until you hit the limit of the grinder, i,e, when it's trying to grind but nothing comes out. If you still have issues then you definitely need another grinder.

                        Excessive motor shaft play in the grinder could also be an issue and not one that is remediable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thee burrs look reasonable.

                          Is the top burr adjustable on these like on the 820? You might have it installed on the coarser end? Run the grinder empty starting on coarse and fine up the grind and see if you can hear the burrs start to clash. If you cant then something isnt quite right and your burrs are not getting close enough.

                          Cheers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by artman View Post
                            Thee burrs look reasonable.

                            Is the top burr adjustable on these like on the 820? You might have it installed on the coarser end? Run the grinder empty starting on coarse and fine up the grind and see if you can hear the burrs start to clash. If you cant then something isnt quite right and your burrs are not getting close enough.

                            Cheers
                            The top burr is adjustable, it's on setting 1/10 which is the finest. The burrs clash at about 15 and I've ground at that and lower with no success unfortuately. Grinder clogged up and stopped on grind setting 1/60

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by science-teacher View Post
                              ... Grinder clogged up and stopped on grind setting 1/60
                              I have a slightly different model Breville grinder (BCG600), but it has the same basic arrangement as far as the burr and top carrier go.

                              I do not understand your terminology vis-à-vis 1/10 1/15 1/60 etc, but if you are getting your grinder clogging once you get to finer settings, it really indicates the sweeper (the correct name, not impeller) is probably worn. Get a new sweeper and fit it, then see how you get on after that.

                              Comment

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