Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Italy invented coffee culture. Now it’s a coffee time capsule.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Italy invented coffee culture. Now it’s a coffee time capsule.

    Unsure whether ignorance, arrogance or insecurity, the Americans seem to think the rest of the world rotates around around good old planet America.

    This from the Washington Post sums it up pretty well,

    "Italian coffee culture is so ingrained that even Starbucks hasn’t made many inroads, only opening its first store in September in Milan."

    Shock horror! charbucks has failed to make inroads, I'm stunned, seem to recall they were a dismal failure in Oz as well, wonder why?

    Lots more gems in the article, certainly worth a read.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...f6b_story.html

  • #2
    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
    Unsure whether ignorance, arrogance or insecurity, the Americans seem to think the rest of the world rotates around around good old planet America.
    I had seen that article too, and I think you may have taken it the wrong way. The Starbucks angle was a minor aside and not the main thrust at all.

    The key point the article makes, and quite correctly, is that the specialty coffee market (such as we have in places like Australia) is virtually absent in Italy. Coffee in Italy is extremely generic, made to a cut price for serving at the counter and there has been little to no innovation, development or experimentation over the years. There is just a tiny speciality market, and everyone seems afraid to take that step into the unknown.

    The barista they mentioned in the article who *is* taking that step got the idea after visiting Melbourne.

    New brewing techniques, new roasting styles and such are virtually absent in Italy, but are reasonably popular in other parts of Europe like Holland, and the Nordic countries. In other words, the article correctly observes that the Italian coffee scene is something of a time capsule. Absolutely correctly in my view.

    My own observation from trips to Italy is that they use very generic beans for a pretty average espresso. Ultimately, if your chain smoking customers are paying 1 euro and slamming it down standing at the bar with two spoons of sugar, what incentive is there to change?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Yelta View Post
      Shock horror! charbucks has failed to make inroads, I'm stunned, seem to recall they were a dismal failure in Oz as well, wonder why
      Far from a dismal failure but they've certainly gone out of fashion. There was a large Starbucks near where I worked in Sydney CBD around 10 years ago which always had long queues of people waiting to get served and evey table in and out occupied. Certainly not the case now, last time I walked past there were fewer than 20 patrons.

      Comment


      • #4
        I thought the post would generate interest.

        I believe I got the gist of the article Herzog, my feeling is when you have a successful coffee coffee culture why mess with it, it may well be a coffee time capsule but what a delightful one it is, evangelists of all types, for better or for worse always want to convert others to their way of doing things.

        Yes I noted Matteo was inspired when he fell for non-Italian coffee after trying it in Melbourne Australia, not Washington DC, not at all surprising.

        Whilst I agree not all Italian coffee is good, its most certainly not all bad, in fact I found excellent espresso readily available during a visit a couple of years ago.

        Re Starbucks Flynn, if they didnt fail in Oz they certainly did an excellent imitation of failing.
        "Starbucks failed to assess the local culture of Australia. They entered a market that had no room for them. Worse, they failed to identify that they were failing. Unfortunately, Starbucks continued to grow their troubled business until finally disaster struck."
        STARBUCKS (Failure in Australian Market)

        Comment


        • #5
          Italy invented coffee culture. Now it’s a coffee time capsule.

          Originally posted by Yelta View Post
          Whilst I agree not all Italian coffee is good, its most certainly not all bad, in fact I found excellent espresso readily available during a visit a couple of years ago.
          Yeah I wouldn't call it bad either. In fact I can’t recall having a bad coffee in Italy. But by the same token, I’ve never had one that’s mind blowing either. It's consistent, I'll give you that. I'd call it all about "OK" and very very generic.

          There's not much variety or diversity in Italian espresso. Cafes that roast their own beans are almost non existent, and instead most places rely on bulk contract beans from the mass suppliers.
          Last edited by herzog; 4 January 2019, 01:17 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Have to admit to being a bit of an Italophile, enjoy most things Italian, particularly food, coffee, wine and art.

            Like most countries not all good, I guess nothing is perfect.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Yelta View Post
              Imy feeling is when you have a successful coffee coffee culture why mess with it, it may well be a coffee time capsule but what a delightful one it is, evangelists of all types, for better or for worse always want to convert others to their way of doing things.
              Originally posted by Yelta View Post
              Have to admit to being a bit of an Italophile, enjoy most things Italian, particularly food, coffee, wine and art.

              I had a young Italian winemaker working with me in 2017, he reckoned Italian wine went off the rails in the 90's when they decided everything French was better than Italian and they brought in cabernet, merlot, maturation in new small oak etc etc.

              Most of the best winemakers returned to more traditional methods over the next 20 years, he was of the opinion that things improved greatly when they did.
              Last edited by Lyrebird; 4 January 2019, 02:34 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lyrebird View Post
                I had a young Italian winmaker working with me in 2017, he was of the opinion that Italian wine went off the rails in the 90's when they decided everything French was better than Italian, so they brought in cabernet, merlot, maturation in new small oak etc etc.

                He was of the opinion that some things improved (particularly the whites) but the best reds went backwards until they went back to something closer to the traditional approach.
                That's a very interesting observation. With wines, your regional specialisation is absolutely key. It's crazy to throw that away.

                Wine people want Pinot Noir out of Burgundy, Cabernet blends out of Bordeaux, and Nebbiolo from Piedmont.

                I imagine the winemaker was talking about the "supertuscan" craze of the 90's, when the tuscan winemakers blended Bordeaux varietals into their traditional Sangiovese. And while some worked out, it's also fair to say that some abominations ensued.

                FWIW, I reckon the best wine in the world is the Barolo out of Piedmont.

                Comment


                • #9
                  To quote from the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano:

                  Since 1998 the Italian Espresso National Institute safeguards the quality of the Italian espresso through a sensory certification

                  On July 6, 1998 the Italian Espresso National Institute (Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano) was founded, with the specific goal of safeguarding and promoting the original Espresso. Today the Italian Espresso National Institute is one of the most important associations in the coffee market counting 39 member companies. It groups espresso-equipment producers and roasters which develop overall €700M revenues.

                  The Italian Espresso National Institute safeguards and promotes the original Espresso through a product certification (certificate of product conformity Csqa n. 214 - 24 September 1999, DTP 008 Ed.1). Each member company which complies with the certification requirements has the right to use the mark Espresso Italiano Certificato (Certified Italiano Espresso). To guarantee consumers who choose to drink espresso at coffee bars bearing this mark, a strict technical specification has been issued, requiring the use of a certified coffee blend, certified equipment (machine and grinder-dispenser) and licensed personnel. The compliance of the three conditions above is supervised by the experts of the Italian Espresso National Institute and by the auditors of the Certifying Body.
                  So yes, you will find that the espresso throughout Italy tends to taste the same, by design.


                  Java "Less Robusta please!" phile
                  Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Getting off topic, I know!

                    I reckon some of the best wines (red and white) come from the Clare and Barossa Valleys right here in Australia.

                    Yeah, I know, my bias is showing again.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yelta View Post
                      I reckon some of the best wines (red and white) come from the Clare and Barossa Valleys right here in Australia.
                      If you like drinking boiled jam.

                      I'll get my coat...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
                        To quote from the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano:



                        So yes, you will find that the espresso throughout Italy tends to taste the same, by design.


                        Java "Less Robusta please!" phile
                        Once again the Italian influence, I grew up in a city with a big Italian migrant community and learned early on to enjoy their food and culture.

                        I quite like blends with a percentage of Robusta, I'm into a roast now that is 90% Yirg and 10% Robusta, drinking very nicely.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by herzog View Post
                          If you like drinking boiled jam.

                          I'll get my coat...
                          Tell me more, examples would be good.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Continuing OT:

                            The Barossa is changing and in my view improving: there is more attention paid to subregionality now and less to Parkerising the wines (Robert Parker, a very influential American critic, loves boiled jam).

                            As a counterpoint try the wines of Peter Schell (Spinifex) or Alex Head (Head Wines).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lyrebird View Post
                              Continuing OT:

                              The Barossa is changing and in my view improving: there is more attention paid to subregionality now and less to Parkerising the wines (Robert Parker, a very influential American critic, loves boiled jam).

                              As a counterpoint try the wines of Peter Schell (Spinifex) or Alex Head (Head Wines).

                              I was yanking Yelta's chain a bit there but yes these observations are spot on, and you're right they are moving away from the OTT boiled jam that peaked a few years ago. I've been buying Head wines lately with some good results. Have not tried Spinifex.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X