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Unpressurised portafilter with Saeco Via Venezia

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  • Unpressurised portafilter with Saeco Via Venezia

    I'd be interested in any tips on how to best use an unpressurised portafilter with a Saeco Via Venezia.

    I took the mechanism out years ago and have been able to get passable brews (not sure I'd call them espresso) using it.

    I only have a Delongi KG100 grinder which is obviously a limitation. On it's finest setting the coffee is probably just below commercial preground coffee. As a result, the shots I get only take around 5-10 seconds at most despite strong tamping.

    Before each shot, I do a pre-infuse of about one second with about a two second pause, that doesn't seem to make much difference.

    With an earlier grinder I was able to get a much finer grind and the shots weren't too bad. However I had to be careful with the grind and the tamping. If the grind was too fine and tamped hard the machine could stall and sometimes it would overheat and the internal thermostat would trip. I then would have to dismantle it and trip the thermostat back by hand.

    I realise this is not a top level espresso machine but it is overall a great buy for the price. I have had it serviced twice which has brought it back to almost new each time so I'm very pleased with it.

  • #2
    So what's your question? Sounds like you need a better grinder, but you know that already. When living with my in-laws a few years ago I "successfully" used a Sunbeam EM0440 grinder with a Via Venezia. I took the spring mechanism out of the portafilter too, but my MIL couldn't cope so I had to put it back. I found that if I ground fine enough the mechanism became moot as the pressure I created with the puck was greater than the spring pressure so it didn't matter that it was there.

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    • #3
      Thanks for the reply. I guess the question is: "is there anything further I should do?"

      I also failed to mention that the guy that serviced my machine advised that after frothing the milk, I should press the brew button and wait until the water started coming out of the shower head before affixing the portafilter. His rationale was that I could a. do a pre-infuse and b. it was better that the coffee did not heat up waiting for the water to come through.

      I think I'm doing as much as I can but was just checking.

      Bring on the better grinder since I understand the rule of thumb is faced with getting either a good machine or a good grinder, the grinder wins out.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by DonPolo View Post
        I also failed to mention that the guy that serviced my machine advised that after frothing the milk, I should press the brew button and wait until the water started coming out of the shower head before affixing the portafilter. His rationale was that I could a. do a pre-infuse and b. it was better that the coffee did not heat up waiting for the water to come through.
        The usual process on single boiler machines is to brew the shot first then prepare the milk. It can be done the other way around but it's just a bit easier doing it shot then milk, in my experience anyway.

        The most important thing with the Via Venezia, as with other small single boilers, is to temperature surf the boiler to get the best shot. If you wait for the brew light to come on and then make the shot, you'll burn it.
        Prepare your grounds and have it ready to load into the machine, then, turn on the brew switch and see what the water exiting the group is doing. If it's spluttering and steaming, it's too hot. Allow it to run until it just stops spluttering. Then, give it about 10-15 seconds rest then lock the portafilter in and brew the shot. This should get it to about the right temperature at the group. Experimenting with flushing and recovery times is temperature surfing and you will find you can make different tasting shots with the same beans depending on when you brew during this surfing cycle.

        Regarding your original question, a better grinder will solve your extraction issues. The pre-infusion probably isn't doing much, it'd be more of a pre-wetting stage. The natural pressure curve of an Ulka vibe pump ramps up fairly slowly so gives a lower pressure for the first few seconds of the shot anyway.

        There's nothing more you need to do regarding modifications for the basket, removing the insert does the job. It's a bit messy I find with the plastic and small outlet holes, back in the day on my Via Venezia I modified it to fit a set of double spouts. These pictures are a throwback from 7 years ago.

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        • #5
          You just need a better grinder, simple as that. I’ve had a KG100 grinder and they’re not a bad little unit, but they can’t grind for espresso machines. Their finest setting is ok for stovetop espresso, but not a pump machine. Can you afford a new grinder at the moment? If so, what would your budget be?

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          • #6
            In terms of milk steaming, I used to take the outer black plastic piece off the wand entirely. Then just touch the tip of the wand to the surface of the milk. Get much better microfoam without the outer piece.
            Last edited by level3ninja; 5 April 2020, 12:18 PM.

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            • #7
              Thanks Noidle,

              I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to source some double spouts but thanks anyway.

              I'm interested in the concept of brewing the shot first. I had been considering this. That is because obviously when you froth the milk, unless your are continually swirling the jug then there is the risk of the milk separating again. This is very difficult with only two hands!

              On the other hand, as advised by the guy who serviced my machine, if you push the brew button after steaming, there is a delay until the water starts coming out of the shower head. Then when I push the brew button again, there is no leakage from the shower head so maybe it's close the right temperature anyway? Just a thought. But I will at leas trial your method and see what happens.

              Also I saw some advice on the internet about periodically cleaning the machine. Things like back-washing and unscrewing the shower head from time to time to clean behind it. I don't have a blind portafilter so back-washing is probably not an option. However I'm a bit wary of dismantling the shower head for fear of doing something wrong.

              Finally I did notice that some of the coffee cleaners you can buy are mostly sodium percarbonate. I was wondering why I would go to the trouble of buying special coffee cleaner when the domestic unfragranced perc would probably do the job anyway

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              • #8
                I've got a new one that I bought of the internet on the way but for the price I'm sure that it's dodgy - just an impulse buy I'm afraid. I'd like to spend $400 but if so, I would probably save it for a more high end espresso machine. I don't know, $200? I used to have the first version of the Breville Smart Grinder but after a year the nylon impeller wore out and they could not supply a replacement part. It actually performed very well. I should have jumped up and down and got them to replace the whole machine but it was out of warranty and I couldn't be bothered.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
                  In terms of milk steaming, I used to take the outer black plastic piece off the wand entirely. Then just touch the tip of the wand to the surface of the milk. Get much better microfoam without the outer piece.
                  I did that as well. Then I replaced the whole wand with a Breville wand from one of their machines that I sourced on line. It works a treat!

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                  • #10
                    Cool, do you know which model Breville?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DonPolo View Post
                      I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to source some double spouts but thanks anyway.

                      I'm interested in the concept of brewing the shot first. I had been considering this. That is because obviously when you froth the milk, unless your are continually swirling the jug then there is the risk of the milk separating again. This is very difficult with only two hands!

                      On the other hand, as advised by the guy who serviced my machine, if you push the brew button after steaming, there is a delay until the water starts coming out of the shower head. Then when I push the brew button again, there is no leakage from the shower head so maybe it's close the right temperature anyway? Just a thought. But I will at leas trial your method and see what happens.....

                      ....Also I saw some advice on the internet about periodically cleaning the machine. Things like back-washing and unscrewing the shower head from time to time to clean behind it. I don't have a blind portafilter so back-washing is probably not an option.

                      Finally I did notice that some of the coffee cleaners you can buy are mostly sodium percarbonate. I was wondering why I would go to the trouble of buying special coffee cleaner when the domestic unfragranced perc would probably do the job anyway
                      The spouts were just something I did to see how it went, didn't improve the coffee at all, was just aesthetic mostly. Wouldn't recommend doing it unless you wanted a little project to do.

                      There's no problem with steaming first then doing the shot, there is just a greater chance of burning the coffee if you haven't cooled the boiler down. Sounds like you are doing it properly though so it'd just be a preference, which way you prefer. The other reason he tells you to press the brew button after steaming is to refill the boiler as steaming reduces the water level and can put the element in danger if it gets too low.

                      If you have steamed the milk well, the foam should integrate back into the milk pretty easily even after a minute or so. Watch this video, you can see he steams a big jug of milk then doses it out to a smaller jug for the pours over a span of a few minutes. There is some skill involved how he transfers the milk between jugs to keep it integrated but swirling it every so often in one jug should keep it together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRTebBz7450

                      You can't backflush this machine as there is no three way solenoid on the group. It is advisable to remove the shower screen every so often and soak it in a hot cleaning solution and also clean the surface of the group head and around the seal. It's only one philips head screw to remove the screen, there's no need to disassemble further. I use Cafetto Espresso Clean which works great and isn't really that expensive when you're only using 1 teaspoon or so of it each time. I haven't tried any other non-coffee rated cleaner so can't comment in that regard.

                      Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
                      Cool, do you know which model Breville?
                      The 800ES wand fits the Via Venezia with no modification needed.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks Noidle. Yes that is the wand that I sourced from EBay.

                        OK well I think I am now brave enough to give the shower screen a bit of a wash.

                        I'll take what you say about cafetto into consideration it does seem reasonably cost efficient.
                        FYI though this is what I found online: OxiClean contains two active ingredients: Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Carbonate. These substances form oxygen and hydrogen peroxide when mixed with water. Hydrogen peroxide is the bleach formed.

                        And on the Cafetto site: Data Sheet - Ingredients Potassium Carbonate 30-60%, Sodium Percarbonate 10-25%, Sodium Carbonate 10-30%. Apparently the Potassiium Carbonate is there as a water softener.

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                        • #13
                          As far as temperature surfing is concerned, I believe I saw someone online saying that one method with the VV was to wait until the brew light went on then press the steam button for about 20 seconds, then brew. Any views on this?

                          I just did my first brew where I pulled the shot before frothing the milk. I'm not sure my palate is sophisticated enough to detect a major difference but I can say it was quite good if that means anything.

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                          • #14
                            Used the Aldi Perc and some dishwashing liquid as a soaker for my portafilter and it came up as clean as a whistle.

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                            • #15
                              Here's two things I"ve wanted to ask.

                              1. How does a pressurised portafilter work? I believe that the grind is not important as somehow the mechanism prevents the water flowing until a certain pressure. But how does that provide a reasonable result and why is it independent of the grind?
                              2. If it is unpressurised and I can't grind very finely, should tamping heavily or lightly make a big difference.

                              I've noticed with the Via Venezia, pressurised or nonpressurised, hard tamp or light tamp the extraction rarely takes more than 10 seconds. When I had a better grinder, and could grind very finely, it was a bit slower but even then I had to be careful of not overheating or stalling.

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