Unpressurised portafilter with Saeco Via Venezia

[level3ninja]

Yes they were discontinued a couple of years ago. Similar machines would be something like a Lelit PL41, Rancilio Silvia, Gaggia Classic. The Lelit also has the option to come with a PID which is well worth the money in my opinion.

[DonPolo]

Well I got a new grinder: a Eureka Mignon. It has made a world of difference!

still playing with grind and tamp but pretty pleased so far.

I am afraid though to open it up and play with the pressure.

PS I was thinking of buying my son a VV but it appears to not be available anywhere. Any goss of what’s happening? Has it been discontinued?

[jkcoffee]

Just continuing my notes for these old machines ...

I have found that the large basket works well with a dose size of 20g. Getting a set of scales made a big difference in terms of controlling the variables to get a consistent result.
If you are adjusting the OPV as per the previous post then the amount of crema is a good indication that you have the pressure about right.
I have been using shorter extract times ~16 seconds as I find that much longer and it gets bitter. Not sure why, but it tastes better this way.
I tried "temperature surfing" to increase the temperature a bit, but generally this made for bitter coffee. I recommend pulling your shot before frothing milk for this reason.

I am pretty happy with what I am making now and the consistency is very good.
Hope this is useful info.

FYI
I got a manual grinder to save money - https://www.oehandgrinders.com/OE-LI...nder_p_14.html
Very accurate adjustment and consistent grind, but hard work.

[jkcoffee]

Hi,

I took a couple of photos to help to explain how to reduce the pressure using the OPV.
Make sure all power is disconnected before opening your machine.
Undo the nut as shown in the photo below (1). It may be quite hard to get it started. This is the main OPV adjustment. I have turned mine 4-5 complete revolutions. I made a mark with a sharpie on the nut so I could tell how far I have rotated it.
You will also need to pull off the tube from where it feeds back into the tank while you undo the nut to stop the pipe twisting (2). It is tight, but can just be pulled off and pushed back on when you are done with the adjustment.



I tested by blinding my portafilter using a generous lump of blutack and the flow back into the tank was greatly increased.

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
John

[jkcoffee]

Hi,
I am still using my ~10 year old Via Venezia and I have a few tips. Removing all of the pressurised parts from the portafilter is a really good start.
These machines are configured to run at a high pressure (~15 bar) which is much too high. Fortunately there is an OPV (over pressure valve) which can be adjusted to reduce the maximum pressure. You have to do this blind as there is no pressure meter, but this has made a huge difference for me. I needed to unscrew it by 3-4 complete turns which surprised me.
If you are interested in doing this then I can take a few photos to help to explain.
Having a clean machine is also important. Turn the machine upside down, remove the shower screen and give the area behind the screen it a good clean.
This video is very useful - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L53Qw5PydH0
Drop me a message if you have any questions.
Cheers, John

[DonPolo]

Wow thanks for the advice about the EM0480. I was getting a bit desperate and was even thinking of using one of those spice grinder thingies. I know it is sacrilege but at least I could get the grind down to a powder consistency even though I know it would lack uniformity of grain size. Had a Breville smart grinder until the nylon impeller wore out. I understand they now have a metal impeller. It was a shame to ditch the Smart Grinder because of such a small part but Breville were unable to supply a replacement part.

[level3ninja]

Something like a second hand Sunbeam EM0480 or Breville smart grinder should be fine.

[saeco_user]

Thought the Via Venezia was the bees knees when I first got it hence the username. But a short barista course soon changed that opinion. I bought an unpressurised basket for it which also required a new group handle. This then required a grinder upgrade which, in my case, was to a used commercial grinder. This then led to many hours of frustration with inconsistent coffee from a machine that wasn't designed to be pushed into true espresso territory. It comes with the pressurised portafilter for a reason. My suggestion is either to continue using it with the pressurised basket and cheap grinder you have (assuming you find the coffee acceptable) or upgrade everything. I can't remember all the things that went wrong with mine (over 10 years ago) but I do remember the frustration.

[DonPolo]

Pressure is one of the factors in extraction. More pressure means higher extraction. If the coffee is too coarse for the pressure to build up then having a flow restriction can help build pressure. The VV does it with a small needle valve and spring in the base of the portafilter, most machines do it with a very small hole in the bottom of the basket. As to how it provides a reasonable result, it doesn't really.

Tamping largely only effects the time it takes for the first drop off coffee to appear, after that the shot will run largely the same.

If the shot's Only taking 10s you either need a better grinder or fresher beans.

Thanks Ninja! Yes I think that I'm really trying to get blood out of a stone when I know I need a better grinder. I ordered a 'too good to be true' grinder of Facebook and am waiting for it to arrive.When the inevitable happens and it is really no good, I'll start looking for a half decent one.

Any suggestions for a grinder that is next level without going too far price-wise? Remember, at this stage we are still talking about a Via Venezia.

[level3ninja]

Pressure is one of the factors in extraction. More pressure means higher extraction. If the coffee is too coarse for the pressure to build up then having a flow restriction can help build pressure. The VV does it with a small needle valve and spring in the base of the portafilter, most machines do it with a very small hole in the bottom of the basket. As to how it provides a reasonable result, it doesn't really.

Tamping largely only effects the time it takes for the first drop off coffee to appear, after that the shot will run largely the same.

If the shot's Only taking 10s you either need a better grinder or fresher beans.

[DonPolo]

Here's two things I"ve wanted to ask.

1. How does a pressurised portafilter work? I believe that the grind is not important as somehow the mechanism prevents the water flowing until a certain pressure. But how does that provide a reasonable result and why is it independent of the grind?
2. If it is unpressurised and I can't grind very finely, should tamping heavily or lightly make a big difference.

I've noticed with the Via Venezia, pressurised or nonpressurised, hard tamp or light tamp the extraction rarely takes more than 10 seconds. When I had a better grinder, and could grind very finely, it was a bit slower but even then I had to be careful of not overheating or stalling.

[DonPolo]

Used the Aldi Perc and some dishwashing liquid as a soaker for my portafilter and it came up as clean as a whistle.

[DonPolo]

As far as temperature surfing is concerned, I believe I saw someone online saying that one method with the VV was to wait until the brew light went on then press the steam button for about 20 seconds, then brew. Any views on this?

I just did my first brew where I pulled the shot before frothing the milk. I'm not sure my palate is sophisticated enough to detect a major difference but I can say it was quite good if that means anything.

[DonPolo]

Thanks Noidle. Yes that is the wand that I sourced from EBay.

OK well I think I am now brave enough to give the shower screen a bit of a wash.

I'll take what you say about cafetto into consideration it does seem reasonably cost efficient.
FYI though this is what I found online: OxiClean contains two active ingredients: Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Carbonate. These substances form oxygen and hydrogen peroxide when mixed with water. Hydrogen peroxide is the bleach formed.

And on the Cafetto site: Data Sheet - Ingredients Potassium Carbonate 30-60%, Sodium Percarbonate 10-25%, Sodium Carbonate 10-30%. Apparently the Potassiium Carbonate is there as a water softener.

[noidle22]

I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to source some double spouts but thanks anyway.

I'm interested in the concept of brewing the shot first. I had been considering this. That is because obviously when you froth the milk, unless your are continually swirling the jug then there is the risk of the milk separating again. This is very difficult with only two hands!

On the other hand, as advised by the guy who serviced my machine, if you push the brew button after steaming, there is a delay until the water starts coming out of the shower head. Then when I push the brew button again, there is no leakage from the shower head so maybe it's close the right temperature anyway? Just a thought. But I will at leas trial your method and see what happens.....

....Also I saw some advice on the internet about periodically cleaning the machine. Things like back-washing and unscrewing the shower head from time to time to clean behind it. I don't have a blind portafilter so back-washing is probably not an option.

Finally I did notice that some of the coffee cleaners you can buy are mostly sodium percarbonate. I was wondering why I would go to the trouble of buying special coffee cleaner when the domestic unfragranced perc would probably do the job anyway

The spouts were just something I did to see how it went, didn't improve the coffee at all, was just aesthetic mostly. Wouldn't recommend doing it unless you wanted a little project to do.

There's no problem with steaming first then doing the shot, there is just a greater chance of burning the coffee if you haven't cooled the boiler down. Sounds like you are doing it properly though so it'd just be a preference, which way you prefer. The other reason he tells you to press the brew button after steaming is to refill the boiler as steaming reduces the water level and can put the element in danger if it gets too low.

If you have steamed the milk well, the foam should integrate back into the milk pretty easily even after a minute or so. Watch this video, you can see he steams a big jug of milk then doses it out to a smaller jug for the pours over a span of a few minutes. There is some skill involved how he transfers the milk between jugs to keep it integrated but swirling it every so often in one jug should keep it together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRTebBz7450

You can't backflush this machine as there is no three way solenoid on the group. It is advisable to remove the shower screen every so often and soak it in a hot cleaning solution and also clean the surface of the group head and around the seal. It's only one philips head screw to remove the screen, there's no need to disassemble further. I use Cafetto Espresso Clean which works great and isn't really that expensive when you're only using 1 teaspoon or so of it each time. I haven't tried any other non-coffee rated cleaner so can't comment in that regard.

Cool, do you know which model Breville?

The 800ES wand fits the Via Venezia with no modification needed.