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Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

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  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Aw shucks :-[

    Leave a comment:


  • Lizzie
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    WOW, Mal the Magnificent!!

    Top post, Mal!!

    L

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  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Originally posted by Meaty0 link=1196585836/15#19 date=1196723286
    I need like "battering ram" tamp pressure (probably 15Kg..Im so weak) to get the same pour, but I think it might just taste that bit better too.
    Gday again Meaty0,

    Handstand tamps should not be necessary mate, you really need to try and find the grind setting, dose (with good distribution) using a force in the range of 7.5-15Kg for example that you can consistently apply that results in pours of 30/60ml (single/double) within 25-30 seconds.

    After a series of strokes some years ago left me with significant loss of strength and dexterity in my arms and hands, etc about the most force I can apply consistently in a series of pours, is in the region of 9.5-10.5Kg. So as you can see, it is not necessary to try and force the PF through the benchtop. It comes down to a combination of dose (quantity), even distribution in the basket, grind setting and tamp force.

    Best thing is to grab a set of bathroom scales, put em on the benchtop near where your espresso hardware is and try to find a technique of holding the tamper, your wrist, elbow and shoulder that allows you an easy way of coming up with a tamp force within the range above that you can apply day in and day out and is within +/- 1.0-1.5Kg of the nominal tamp force that is comfortable for you to apply.

    Regarding dosing, there are lots of different methods that experienced people, both pros and amateurs alike employ, in an effort to ensure that they load the PF Basket with a quantity of ground coffee that is +/- 1.0g within the nominal amount that their basket can properly contain. How much is this? Well, its another number thats not really set in concrete but the quantity of coffee that you need to aim for, as an accepted "rule of thumb", is that amount which after dosing, distributing and tamping.... leaves a very slight impression of the Group Shower Screen or Nut/Screw when the PF is locked into its normal position ready to pull a shot, NOT after the shot is poured. Keep adjusting your dose either up or down until you discover the correct dose quantity that provides the slight impression described above.
    There are so many different ways to do this (dosing) Im not going to try and describe several of them here but aside from weighing each shot (which quite a few people do) a method that I have found which works for me and for quite a few other CSers, is to.....

    1) Initially, overfill your Basket so that a small mound of coffee sits proud of the Basket Rim.
    2) Tap the PF on the benchtop (using a small breadboard or similar to protect the laminate) a set number of times to settle the coffee, say three times, then
    3) Overfill the basket once more and tap on the benchtop again another couple of times, then
    4) Level off the coffee across the Basket Rim using a straight edge, the side of your finger or what ever is most convenient.
    The basic idea is to ensure that there are no voids or excess coffee in place over the surface of the Basket, it should be flat.
    5) Now you can tamp the coffee down using the force you have found to be the easiest to apply consistently.
    6) Lock the PF into position ready for a pour and then remove again to view the surface of the coffee puck and verify the nature of the S/C or screw/nut impression.
    7) As mentioned above, youre looking for a very slight impression into the surface and not enough so as to cause significant disturbance of the puck.
    8) If the impression or lack there-of requires an adjustment to the dose, you will need to go back to the dosing/distribution stage again and either increase or reduce the number of taps on the bench you use to settle the coffee (especially the second round), tamp again and retry the PF lock-in and inspect. I hope you have a good quality Tamper for this Meaty0 as a substandard one can really make it difficult for a newbie to come to grips with the method required.
    9) Basically, the Tamp should be applied in a single firm motion such that the puck surface is parallel with the Rim and maybe a slight polishing spin if you feel so inclined.... its not really necessary though.
    10) Right, now youre ready to pull a shot. Lock the PF into place and hit the Brew switch and then place your cup(s) into position. As you already know, youre looking for 30/60ml in 25-30 seconds as the benchmark. If the pour is too quick then you need to grind slightly finer and the opposite if the pour is too slow. When youre stating out like this, I wouldnt bother using the Single Basket at all, just stick with the Double and you will find it a lot easier to get things right. If you only want a Single shot, then you can either waste half the shot or collect them and put em in the fridge for later use when making the occasional Ice-Coffee.... Mmmm, beautiful .

    And thats about the guts of it mate. Once you get this side of things sorted out, you can try variations to this system if you feel you can tailor certain aspects of it to suit the way you prefer to do things, but thats a bit further on down the track Id reckon. All the best Meaty0 and I hope this is of some help to you,

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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  • Meaty0
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    I think Im sorry I mentioned the sex bit

    But on a brighter note....my shots are consistently good now. Tried a coarser grind (just half a step) and I need like "battering ram" tamp pressure (probably 15Kg..Im so weak) to get the same pour, but I think it might just taste that bit better too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thundergod
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Well I suppose it could work either way, but my hint was in the second line; coffee first helps.

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  • GrindOnDemand
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Originally posted by Thundergod link=1196585836/15#16 date=1196681661
    I read in my Mens Health magazine that one can help with getting the other.
    Always cryptic TG ... which one helps getting the other?

    Leave a comment:


  • Thundergod
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    I read in my Mens Health magazine that one can help with getting the other.

    So next time ones invited back for coffee...............

    Leave a comment:


  • beanz4brainz
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Originally posted by Meaty0 link=1196585836/0#12 date=1196642511
    Thanks for the encouragement Greg.   If I can get better than the shots I tasted yesterday, I will truly be in Heaven.  No more sex for me...just coffee! ;D
    Wow Meat0.......  Why not try having both, but not at the same time?   Giving up either one sounds like you need counselling.    ;D ;D


    b4b.

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  • Ray_C
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Man! I just love this web site....... you guys "rock"

    Ray.

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  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Yes Meatyo,

    Greg is spot-on...... Its all about being consistent with every aspect of the process of making espresso. If she (the neighbourhood tutor) can show you a method that works as a starting point, then thats great as far as Im concerned 8-). A bit further on down the track when your understanding of the processes and your confidence is higher, then you can start to adjust the method you use one parameter at a time and examine the end results with knowledge gained up to that point.

    Go for it mate and practice the method you use until the end results are exactly where you want them, practice makes perfect and consistency is everything when it comes to extracting the best the bean has to offer. Onward and upward...... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Meaty0
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Originally posted by Greg Pullman link=1196585836/0#11 date=1196640932
    Meaty0,

    Keep going, youre doing well. One thing which cant be denied from what youve seen is that the combination of beans, grind, dose, tamp, timing and technique she used gave better results than your versions of the same. So thats a good starting point. The above comments arent intended to say her technique is useless - clearly it gave results that impressed you. However what they are indicating you could get *even better* results by using a better combination than the one she used. If you work on it, what all that tells you is the machine is capable of *at least* as good results as what she got, and probably better. Sounds like the skys the limit mate!

    Greg

    Thanks for the encouragement Greg. If I can get better than the shots I tasted yesterday, I will truly be in Heaven. No more sex for me...just coffee! ;D

    Leave a comment:


  • gregpullman
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Meaty0,

    Keep going, youre doing well. One thing which cant be denied from what youve seen is that the combination of beans, grind, dose, tamp, timing and technique she used gave better results than your versions of the same. So thats a good starting point. The above comments arent intended to say her technique is useless - clearly it gave results that impressed you. However what they are indicating you could get *even better* results by using a better combination than the one she used. If you work on it, what all that tells you is the machine is capable of *at least* as good results as what she got, and probably better. Sounds like the skys the limit mate!

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • Meaty0
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    Originally posted by Pioneer Roaster link=1196585836/0#9 date=1196631396
    As for her dosing and tamping tecniques. Im not saying that there is anything wrong with them but....
    That is a technique used by Merlo to extract their beans. It is taught to cafe staff and takeaway shop owners around Qld. It is a fairly consistent way of ensuring average, not great nor offensive, results in the cup. The perfect extraction time taught to cafes is 20 secs, to take-away joints its 16 secs - as taught by the Merlo reps. It is a basis of lowest common demoninater training.
    So it may have worked, but it could be better. I believe, and a lot of specialty barsita will agree, that dosing and distribution is just as important as the coffee you use, the grind, and the tamp. Its always good to get a few opinions and thats what I would suggest doing.

    How about something like this: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1194473461
    I bow to your greater experience. Im a total newbie to all of this. BUT her first words to me were to forget about extraction time and concentrate on how the shot tastes. We just got hold of some "practice" coffee...a one week old bag of Merlo Espresso, and tried different grinds and tamps until it tasted good. Her instructions were to stop the shot when it "went whitish" (blonding?) and not worry about time. Then we tasted it. She was explicit that I should do this with each different type of coffee I use, then maintain that routine.

    Perhaps when you get the taste right...the extraction time is right too?

    Anyway...at lunchtime...Im going to try a coarser grind and harder tamping. Ill watch the time as well.

    Now if I can just get the milk right... :-/

    Leave a comment:


  • pie_in_ear
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    As for her dosing and tamping tecniques. Im not saying that there is anything wrong with them but....
    That is a technique used by Merlo to extract their beans. It is taught to cafe staff and takeaway shop owners around Qld. It is a fairly consistent way of ensuring average, not great nor offensive, results in the cup. The perfect extraction time taught to cafes is 20 secs, to take-away joints its 16 secs - as taught by the Merlo reps. It is a basis of lowest common demoninater training.
    So it may have worked, but it could be better. I believe, and a lot of specialty barsita will agree, that dosing and distribution is just as important as the coffee you use, the grind, and the tamp. Its always good to get a few opinions and thats what I would suggest doing.

    How about something like this: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1194473461

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Hey....Machine Isnt To Blame After All!

    A standard and proper dosing/tamping technique :-?.... Thats a newey to me.

    If Ive seen nothing else here over the last few years, its the myriad number of techniques used both by pros and amateurs alike that produce great results, in the cup. Naturally, the basic technique needs to be in the ballpark but after that, its doing everything consistently that really matters so that by adjusting one parameter at a time you can arrive at the desired outcome.

    You need to be guided by the results in the cup, everything else comes second.....

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:

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