Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Surprising Extraction Experiments....

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

    The Best shot time will vary with the hardware used as well. What works on one machine wont neccesarily work with another.

    On my Cimbali M-28 25 seconds is in fact the ideal time. Less than 23 seconds or more than 27 and eeeewwwwww.

    Im currently playing around with my Cimbali M-52 to see if it can produce as good a shot as the M-28. If it can then I will be making it my main system over the summer as it puts less heat into the room than the M-28. So far Im not convinced that it can produce as good a shot as in head to head taste tests the M-52s shots are sadly lacking when compaired to the ones being produced by the M-28.

    In order to make the comparision fair I am manually grinding the coffee for the shots in the M-52 and using the same exact amount (19.5g for this coffee) as is used in the M-28s pulls. I had to make only a very small adjustment to the fineness of the grind (from where it was for the M-28) to achieve a 25 second pull from the M-52. However the shot from the M-52 tasted under-extracted and possessed nowhere near the flavor of the same 25 second pull from the M-28. (Is everybody as confused as I am by all these numbers?) Having drunk enough espressos doing the comparisions to keep skylab from falling I had to finally call a halt to the testing for the day. Tomorrow Im going to try longer extractions on the M-52 and see how they fair.

    Longer extractions on the M-52 should not be the problem they are on the M-28 as the M-52s boiler is at a lower pressure/temp. 1.2 bars on the M-28 as oppossed to 0.8 bars on the M-52. Additionally the temperature of the grouphead in the M-52 is controlled by multiple electronic sensors and heaters (all seperately controllable) completely independant of the boiler/HX temp. With this arrangement youd think temperature surfing would be a breeze, and it would, if I could only access the controls! Unfortunately only a few items are available to my control as to access the rest requires a special electronic key, which Cimbali will be happy to sell to you for only $150USD. gggggrrrrrrrrrrrr With-out this key (actually 2 keys for full access) the only thing that you can adjust is the length of the grind, the fineness of the grind, and the amount of water and milk used.

    So what were we talking about? Oh yeah, extraction times. So tomorrow Ill try longer extraction times on the M-52 and well see how they taste.

    Java "Experimenting away" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

      Originally posted by chopinhauer link=1116753224/0#14 date=1116824680
      Hey Mal,

      I dont think I would be mistaken to assume that Wireds comments were said in jest. To me it seemed like he was taking the micky out of some of the coffee nazis who lurk out there on the web. If not, then he is one of the chief Obergruppenfuhrers of that bunch.
      Hi chopinhauer,

      You could be right there. If I have misunderstood the intent then I most humbly offer my apologies to "Wired", in fact I will go further than that and add my support to anyone who believes that rules are there to be tested, not to be blindly adhered to as if a Commandment handed down from the Mount.

      How will we ever learn to improve unless we set out to push the boundries? Push those boundries way out I say, and see what happens... might be risky, but might be nirvana too.

      Cheers,
      Mal.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

        Hi Mal.

        I was joking and Im horrified that anyone could have taken what I said seriously.

        It was entirely about what YOU like to drink. When I still drank at cafes I used to ask for two single shots in a flat white rather than a double pour as I wanted more of the front extraction of the coffee.

        Ive now concluded that I preferred that because the double shots I tasted were often over extracted.

        Cheers

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

          Hhhmmm....It appears the M-52 does better with-out over packing with some nice results using 15g of beans and extracting 55ml (including crema) in about 30-35 seconds.

          Im finding temp surfing to be quite difficult with this machine as it is so quiet I cant hear any of the usual audio clues and due to its design there are no visual clues either. As a result Im experimenting with flushing different amounts of water through the brew cycle before doing my pull in an attempt to discover the appropriate amount for a perfect pull. So far it appears the best result is achieved by flushing about 60ml through and then immediately doing your shot.

          Anybody out there have any experience with the Cimbali M-52?

          The biggest issue seems to be the packing of the grounds. This appears to be inconsistant with the water not flowing through all the grounds evenly. Has anybody here actually seen the insides of the packing/brewing chamber on this machine? Im curious of the actual design but am reluctant to tear into mine that far unless its really needed.

          Java "Still experimenting" phile
          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

            Hhhhmmmm....Im quickly coming to the conclusion that as expensive and as well built as it is the Cimbali M-52 is physically incapable of producing a God Shot.

            In 4 days of experimenting with the M-52 and varying everything from the amount of coffee used, to the grind, to the amount of water used and varying the shot time from 15 seconds up too a full minute I have yet to see a God Shot. :-/

            It appears that the machine is incapable of producing God Shots. I suspect this is due to its design. After the water has been forced through the grounds in the brewing chamber the espresso travels through a small (about 2-3 mm) plastic line for about 25cm before it is dispensed into the cup. During this time the espresso is still under pressure and comes out of this line at Id guess about 1-2 bars of pressure. It is this part of the machine that I suspect limits its ability to pull God Shots due to the crema being under pressure rather than being able to flow freely and drip directly into the cup once created.

            With everything dialed in the pull is pure crema but the shot seperates out very quickly in the cup with the crema having very little body. This results in a Charbucks quality shot. Instead of supporting the sugar, the sugar immediately falls through the crema. Good enough for the masses perhaps, but sadly lacking for a true Coffee Snob. :P

            If I were to rate this machine Id say it would be fine in a commercial establishment where the expresso only had to live up to the standards of say Charbucks. For anybody who wanted great espresso though Id say avoid it like the plague. You will be nothing but dissapointed.

            I think its interesting to see that Charbucks has now made this machine their standard. The grapevine has it that all Charbucks are switching over to the Cimbali M-52. So much for *ever getting a great shot there!

            Can anybody think of anything I may have missed or something I can try with this beastie before I give up on it and deep 6 it?

            Java "Ordering in insulation for the M-28" phile
            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

              A "god shot" was originally intended to describe a shot of espresso that tastes the same as the roasted coffee smells.

              It seem to have been bastardised down to a tiger striped, honey dripping something or other. Achieving "ideal" extraction is a combination of bean, roast, grind, tamp, water pressure and water temperature.

              If you think about it you could achieve the right combination with basically any equipment; it is the lack of complete control of each and every parameter that precludes perfectly repeatable results.

              There is no reason why someone with a Rocky and a Silvia cant produce a better shot than someone with a temperature customised La Marzocco.

              Cheers

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                Hhhmmm...To me a God Shot is that perfect shot where the Cosmos just happened to come into alignment long enough for everything to work together perfectly. It is the culmination of all the work of discovering and then roasting the beans to their sweet spot, of having the perfect grind for that moments conditions, of having your grouphead at the perfect point in its temperature cycle, of having your cup at the right temperature, of using the right amount of tamping and twisting your wrist just *so, and when all is said and done, of what-ever Diety you believe in happening to smile at you as you toss the cosmic dice and do your pull. ;D

                With all that said Id fully agree with you Wired about your
                There is no reason why someone with a Rocky and a Silvia cant produce a better shot than someone with a temperature customised La Marzocco.
                comment, as long as youre talking about standard espresso machines. Once you move into the world of SuperAutos however you are working with a dramatically different machine design. I am afraid there are physical reasons superautos can not produce God Shots.

                The M-52 has a very consistant and repeatable quality shot. Unfortunately that shot quality is only average and is far from a CS/GS quality cup.

                Crema is a critical component of a God Shot and the traveling through the tube of the espresso/crema after brewing gives it different physical characteristics than espresso/crema has coming from a portafilter and no matter how much control one has over the process the presence of that tube will limit the quality of the shot. Such is my current hypothesis anyways.

                I plan on running one more series of tests on the M-52 next week using a different bean on the off chance that was an issue. Unlikely as its one of my favorites (Nicaragua Angelina Estate) and sees a lot of use around here. ;D But just to be sure and set all doubts to rest i plan on doing up a batch of the Bolivian Cup of Excellence winner to see what that produces. Unfortunately I dont see the outcome changing. :-/

                Java "Once more into the breech" phile
                Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                  Originally posted by Javaphile link=1116753224/15#21 date=1117084569
                  Hhhmmm...To me a God Shot is that perfect shot where the Cosmos just happened to come into alignment long enough for everything to work together perfectly. It is the culmination of all the work of discovering and then roasting the beans to their sweet spot, of having the perfect grind for that moments conditions, of having your grouphead at the perfect point in its temperature cycle, of having your cup at the right temperature, of using the right amount of tamping and twisting your wrist just *so, and when all is said and done, of what-ever Diety you believe in happening to smile at you as you toss the cosmic dice and do your pull. ;D
                  But after all of that, did you...

                  Do a jump to the left
                  And then a step to the right

                  With your hands on your hips
                  You bring your knees in tight

                  But its the pelvic thrust
                  That really drives you insane

                  What! You didnt? Well that explains it.....

                  Cheers,
                  Mal.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                    I tried all that before Mal, but the warp field never materialized! Maybe if I tried it one more time... 8) : ;D

                    Java "Ouch! I think I dislocated my pelvis!" phile
                    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                      Ah! I didnt realise the M52 was a superauto. Well that would really suck for making good coffee.

                      Maybe turf both of them and get a really good single group machine. La Marzocco Linea anyone?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                        My Cimbali M-28 Basic 2-Group is a semi-auto and works like a charm producing one great shot after another. No reason to get rid of it! Its only downside is all the heat it puts into the room with its 12l boiler at 1.2 bars and huge brass groupheads which are the most massive in the industry. I spent several years chasing this machine down and If I were to swap it for anything other than another La Cimbali or a La Marzocco I would most likely be taking a step backwards. So until one of those comes along in a single group design I think Ill be hanging onto the M-28. ;D ;D ;D

                        The La Cimbali M-52 on the other hand is a monsterous SuperAuto that I happened accross on eBay after it had fallen off a truck. Never having seen one before I did some searching on the net and discovered that the M-52 is Cimbalis top of the line SuperAuto and sells for $23,000USD. Seeing this and with the machine being local to me I put in a half serious bid on it. Lo and behold I won it for something like $37USD. I went and picked it up and as I had suspected while the outside had taken quite the beating from the fall, mechanically alls it needed was some tweaking here and there and it worked perfectly (other than the missing frother attachment and a solenoid which had obviously been removed and not broken off).

                        Loving to play with new toys as I do I couldnt just go trading it off to the local Cimbali dealer (I have a standing offer from them for a ton of equipment in trade for it) with-out first having some fun with it. ;D : ;D Plus if it could produce great shots as consistantly as the M-28 then it would be easier to hook it up than it would be to insulate the boiler on the M-28.

                        Seeing as it doesnt appear that it will be able to produce the great shots it looks like Ill be trading it off. Im hoping to be able to trade it for a small commercial roaster but if all else fails Ill trade it to the dealer for the equipment hes offered me and then sell that stuff off to buy a roaster with. Or I may just keep it to play with and to use for parts. : ;D

                        Java "So many toys, so little time" phile
                        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                          La Marzocco Linea is available as a single group. I think it is too expensive for the modest improvement over other top of the line models but given the money you saved on the M52 it would be a drop in the ocean. You could get one of those Swift grinders at the same time. ;D

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Surprising Extraction Experiments....

                            Too bad that saved money isnt cash in hand. :-/ In order to put the M-52 into actual commercial service it would need roughly $5,000USD in parts to bring it into compliance with the governing codes and full functionality. Who knows, I may be able to get a new Cimbali Jr. for it from the dealer. Who knows, only time will tell and so far no birdie has wispered in my ear the outcome.

                            Java "Compiling his wish list" phile
                            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X