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  • #16
    Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

    Originally posted by Dennis link=1201913196/0#11 date=1202036287
    Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1201913196/0#8 date=1202034325
    Originally posted by Dennis link=1201913196/0#7 date=1202030660
    pre-ground decaf kept in a tupperware container :P
    not everyone has the luxury for a decaf grinder....not enough decaf volume for most places to justify another $800ish for a mazzer mini. And I dont think spending $200 on a Sunbeam grinder "cuts it".
    I dont accept that at all. Since when is a grinder a luxury when you run a cafe? Especially when charging $3.50. A jolly for $650 would not be such a big outlay and do the job.
    Spot on Dennis!

    I dare say that a $200 Sunbeam is a much better option than preground! It would at least offer freshly ground on demand...

    Im not suggestion that a Sunbeam grinder is a good idea for a cafe though...

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    • #17
      Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

      Yeah, one thing I noticed the other day is that I went into a cafe near where I work that serves up Tobys, and it kind of threw me when I noticed that they had an EM0480 for their decaf. I asked them what was the story with that (implying that its surely sub-standard), and they said that it was the grinder Tobys supplied for the decaf. .... Glad i dont dont drink decaf too often (I cant even remember the last time I did....)

      YeeZa

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      • #18
        Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

        Originally posted by Dennis link=1201913196/0#11 date=1202036287
        Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1201913196/0#8 date=1202034325
        Originally posted by Dennis link=1201913196/0#7 date=1202030660
        pre-ground decaf kept in a tupperware container :P
        not everyone has the luxury for a decaf grinder....not enough decaf volume for most places to justify another $800ish for a mazzer mini. And I dont think spending $200 on a Sunbeam grinder "cuts it".
        I dont accept that at all. Since when is a grinder a luxury when you run a cafe? Especially when charging $3.50. A jolly for $650 would not be such a big outlay and do the job.
        Ok lets look at it like this. Decaf is sold to cafes for much more than their regular blend of caffienated coffee. Lets ignore this part for now...say they make $3 net profit (excluding paying bills, wages and other overheads etc), you will need to make over 200 decaf coffees to recoup your money on the grinder. Over 200 cups of decaf....that will probably take me 1 year to do, I make probably 1 cup of decaf, if that per day. Considering most cafes have free on loan machine and grinder, why pay for another grinder? Thats the mindset of many cafe owners...they have much bigger problems to deal with than one cup of decaf a day.

        Ive worked at many places that have done 20kg/week, 90kg/week and even 120kg/week of coffee....decaf made up less than 1% of the volume.

        Everyone at the end of the day has other priorities...decaf I would imagine would be the last of their problems. And it would be very unfair to damn a cafe and/or an excellent barista because his boss hasnt splashed money on a decaf grinder.

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        • #19
          Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

          hmm....My thoughts are a little different...

          Given that most cafes are on supply agreements/contracts, if the supplying companies had integrity and truely cared about their product being served well, theyd be insisting that they supply a grinder with decaf.

          We all know that equipment is factored into the per kilo buy price for those on freebie agreements...

          No excuses not to have a dedicated, correctly adjusted decaf grinder IMHO.

          Chris

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          • #20
            Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

            Yeah good call David. Its interesting to see it from another perspective like that. thanks for sharing that. Its definitely one of those, "Well, if you put it that way..." instances.
            In the meantime I have strolled up to the local Tobys outlet again and asked them how much decaf they actually churn out - and Dave youre spot on - they get about 1 or 2 a day, and its a regular (who, they inform me) isnt the snobbiest of coffee drinkers, and seem satisfied with what the EM0480 grinds out.
            And its not necessarily a sign of a bad cafe if they have one there for their decaf, IMO. This place up the road punches out a solid, acceptable caffeinated coffee.

            YZa

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            • #21
              Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

              Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1201913196/15#18 date=1202087893
              We all know that equipment is factored into the per kilo buy price for those on freebie agreements...
              Chris
              Too true...if only most places knew how much money theyre hemmoraging on contracts like that. They should bite the bullet...spend $10,000 on machine and 2 grinders and be done with it. That way you own the machines for life, and pay cheaper prices for coffee

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              • #22
                Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1201913196/15#20 date=1202088688
                Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1201913196/15#18 date=1202087893
                We all know that equipment is factored into the per kilo buy price for those on freebie agreements...
                Chris
                Too true...if only most places knew how much money theyre hemmoraging on contracts like that. They should bite the bullet...spend $10,000 on machine and 2 grinders and be done with it. That way you own the machines for life, and pay cheaper prices for coffee
                ...thankyou! ;D

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                  Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1201913196/15#18 date=1202087893
                  We all know that equipment is factored into the per kilo buy price for those on freebie agreements...
                  At 1/2 kg of decaf per week for 50 weeks, the supplying companies would have to charge an extra $32 per kg of decaf to cover the cost of an $800 mazzer mini in a year:

                  50 weeks * 1/2kg = 25 kilos/year
                  $800/25 = $32

                  If you want to incorporate the cost into the overall cost of coffee, a 10kg/week cafe (including decaf) would be paying an extra $1.60/kg to cover the cost of an $800 mini in a year:

                  50 weeks * 10kg = 500 kg/year
                  $800/500 = $1.60

                  It strikes me that either one of those scenarios could easily render a coffee company uncompetitive in the eyes of a cafe owner who doesnt really give a damn about coffee. IMHO, I think that the onus is best placed on the cafe owners to make the decision. Baby steps - lets get them on to fresh coffee first, then when they see the increase in business and customer satisfaction over the stale crap that they used to be using, the sales reps can bring up the idea of buying a grinder.

                  Personally, I think that the whole price per kg model ought to be as transparent as possible. Transparency is a selling point to even the most cynical, money-hungry cafe owner. However, you cant use transparency to get a decaf grinder into a cafe until the cafe owner appreciates the merits of fresh regular coffee and they might well never appreciate the merits of fresh regular coffee unless it is as price-competitive as possible.

                  I agree that it would be great to see a decaf grinder in every cafe, but I think that getting fresh coffee into every cafe is a higher priority, and if that means stale decaf, so be it. Id rather have a cafe serving fresh regular coffee and stale decaf than stale regular coffee and stale decaf.

                  Cheers,

                  Luca

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                    I agree with everything you have said Luca...

                    Big companies have marketing budgets and this is where a dedicated decaf grinder can come in.

                    If its good for the brand and public perception of the brand, there has to be some justification for outlaying the $$$.

                    Id be much happier to see a K3T as a dedicated decaf grinder than stale stuff out of tupperware which would imply lack of interest by both the coffee supllier and the cafe operator. The decaf custoimer deserves respect too- even if I wouldnt drink the stuff. :

                    Sometimes you gotta spend the bucks

                    Chris

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                      Just one minor question/comment I believe may effect those careful calculations...

                      Do you think supplying companies (and lets face it, were talking about some big players here) pay retail prices for a grinder? I dont.

                      Disclaimer: Its not me thats the one who drinks decaf! : :P

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                        Some of the signs I have seen have already been mentioned such as portafilter not rinsed or wiped between coffees, showersceen not flushed, milk being heated after being wand being placed in jug and barista not being present, milk added to old milk that was sitting(a la *bucks) after last coffee, skim milk being used when I asked for a latte or flat white(if I wanted skim milk I would have asked).

                        I used to pay attention to the machine before ordering(and I still do), but I no longer assume that someone behind a LM or Synesso is going to make a good coffee because of the equipment. I also saw some very questionable tamping techniques last year at a cafe chain when I was waiting for the Christmas Pageant to go past. The coffee was terrible.

                        I remember reading something where someone said to observe the barista while they make a couple of coffees before you buy. Obviously we dont all have time for this and are really after a coffee. I normally try to try new places. Some places I just wont go to as they look like they arent serious about coffee. It is just a hunch.

                        It also helps with a barista is handy when you want a coffee from a coffee shop. I went to a decent place in Adelaide who seem serious about their coffee and ordered a flat white. I had to wait about 8 mins(I was the only one waiting) and I only had 45 mins for lunch inc. the drive there and back. A young guy told me he was unable to make coffee and the person who made the coffee was on the phone. Not cool to have 3 people working in a coffee shop(not cafe) and only one being able to make coffee.

                        I had one of the worst coffee experiences ever last year at a new place that opened up in Adelaide. Too many negatives and the worst part was that the coffee was bad.

                        I have read enough things to know what a lot of places can do to improve their cafes. It comes down to training, quality, pride and seriousness to name a few. And obviously the right practices.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                          Excellent posy Donnas650. The last 2 sentences say it all really.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                            Originally posted by luca link=1201913196/15#22 date=1202119584
                            I agree that it would be great to see a decaf grinder in every cafe, but I think that getting fresh coffee into every cafe is a higher priority, and if that means stale decaf, so be it. Id rather have a cafe serving fresh regular coffee and stale decaf than stale regular coffee and stale decaf.

                            Cheers,

                            Luca
                            cant agree with you there luca - to me its gotta be the complete package or not at all...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                              Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1201913196/15#17 date=1202087282
                              Originally posted by Dennis link=1201913196/0#11 date=1202036287
                              Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1201913196/0#8 date=1202034325
                              Originally posted by Dennis link=1201913196/0#7 date=1202030660
                              pre-ground decaf kept in a tupperware container  :P
                              not everyone has the luxury for a decaf grinder....not enough decaf volume for most places to justify another $800ish for a mazzer mini. And I dont think spending $200 on a Sunbeam grinder "cuts it".
                              I dont accept that at all.  Since when is a grinder a luxury when you run a cafe?  Especially when charging $3.50.  A jolly for $650 would not be such a big outlay and do the job.
                              Ok lets look at it like this. Decaf is sold to cafes for much more than their regular blend of caffienated coffee. Lets ignore this part for now...say they make $3 net profit (excluding paying bills, wages and other overheads etc), you will need to make over 200 decaf coffees to recoup your money on the grinder. Over 200 cups of decaf....that will probably take me 1 year to do, I make probably 1 cup of decaf, if that per day. Considering most cafes have free on loan machine and grinder, why pay for another grinder? Thats the mindset of many cafe owners...they have much bigger problems to deal with than one cup of decaf a day.

                              Ive worked at many places that have done 20kg/week, 90kg/week and even 120kg/week of coffee....decaf made up less than 1% of the volume.

                              Everyone at the end of the day has other priorities...decaf I would imagine would be the last of their problems. And it would be very unfair to damn a cafe and/or an excellent barista because his boss hasnt splashed money on a decaf grinder.
                              Hi
                              As a cafe owner i have to say that as mentioned earlier i have 2 grinders, i grind fresh to order both decaf and regular, i own all my own equipment (youd be crazy to sign a contract), and i only turn out 6 kgs a week of regular & under 1/2kg decaf. I dont know where you get your pricing from as i have always paid the same for decaf as regular, except for once when i tried organic.
                              It all boils down to a love of good coffee whether its decaf or regular, we should only serve what we would drink ourselves.
                              I would never sell stale bread because i only like rolls why would i sell stale decaf if i only drink regular.

                              LE

                              PS I say support the cafes that truely love coffee & forget the ones that only pretend they do

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Warning signs for a bad cafe

                                Well said Le I bet you will find a clean wand and not so full doser in Go. cafe Goomalling W.A.

                                We have a bakery here that has a Boema single group. The porta filter handle is NEVER taken out of its group. The coffee is made with instant and whole machine just used to heat/foam/fry/RUIN the milk.

                                One should always look for a grinder.

                                its funny the same guy ones the only other bakery and it has the works...makes OK coffee.....</me wonders about some ppl>

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