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  • #16
    Re: Dose size discussion.

    Thanks for that James and yes...you also have a very nice machine and grinder set up

    Stephen, I have been beating my head against a brick wall for ages telling people to dose "volumetrcially" rather than by weight. There is a range of different sized filters around, some machines have over time ended up with a mix of non compatible (from the point of view of size) filters...plays havoc with you when trying to set up a doser grinder. In addition, not all groups are machined in the same way, and as a result the group showers are not all positioned in the same place when the group handle is applied to the group.

    This all makes for different amounts of grinds, even in the same sized filters, when fitted to different machines.

    Clear as mud? If so, only because it was difficult for me to write this up. Its simple really...fill the filter...to the level suitable for your particular set up.

    Anyway, another sweeping statement from me...people who insist on publishing doses **by weight** in their espresso texts, I guess have amassed less experience than they should have had, before writing these texts....

    The best espresso text I have seen, is that published by another of our Site Sponsors - Pinot. If anyone is looking for one such text, you are wasting your time looking at anything else.

    Stephen, your vendor (of the machine) should have made this (volumetric dosing) perfectly clear during your pre delivery familiarisation lesson.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    • #17
      Re: Dose size discussion.

      Originally posted by sharkboy link=1121427776/0#13 date=1121617457
      More and more Im finding coffee leans more toward art than science. Well at least to my sensibility anyway.
      Finally! Some are starting to realise that making coffee is an art and not so much a science. Throw your thermocouples and scales away and start adjusting your technique to your machine. Use sight, sound, smell, texture, taste as your tools, and then you have a better chance of making better coffee on virtually any machine. You all know the parameters that are needed to extract a good brew. All we need is to use our senses to adjust our technique if our machines settings or design require it. Dont need to lock in numbers in our heads and try to make our machines conform to those that a perfect machine would do. There are many ways of achieving a good brew, and there is no holy grail.

      It is easy to see that FC really understands the parametres of making a good coffee and he always gives advice on how we can adjust what we do to make our coffees better whenever we have concerns, and not often about how we can adjust the machines. I doubt he needs a thermocouple or a PID controler to be able to make a good cupper. When he made me a coffee in his shop he took great care extracting the espresso maybe even more then Ive seen before. He observed how the brew reacts, looks, smells, etc. and would have picked up any imperfections on the way well before it got into my latte. He could tune the machine or adjust his techinque to make a good extraction without using any tools or props.

      That is what we all need to achieve. Hes had 40 years experience, though. But if we rely on bits of measuring equipments to learn our skill then well take longer to get there and will have less fun and more frustration with our machines. It is a bit like those in the cafe that keep pooring the textured milk with a spoon to hold the froth back so that they can CONTROL the milk flow. They are too eager to poor a good latte and cannot wait till they develop the skill of free pooring.

      With better skill better coffee is achieved , but with better machinery no better coffee is guaranteed.

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      • #18
        Re: Dose size discussion.

        Oh shucks Monti!

        Regardz,
        FC.

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        • #19
          Re: Dose size discussion.

          In a commercial setting one must dose by volume. There simply isnt time to weigh each shot and waste is figured into the pricing structure.

          In a home setting such waste is rarely looked upon as being acceptable. Especially when roasting your own beans in small batches.

          In most cases it is this that leads people to try and dose by weight.

          As has been amply pointed out you *cant dose purely by weight with-out taking into consideration environmental variables. HOWEVER, once those variable have been adjusted for and youve arrived at the correct mass to grind settings to achieve that perfect extraction I find that you can easily adjust for the temp and humidity variations through-out the day by paying attention to your extractions and making the minor adjustments to grind and mass of beans on the following extraction as dictated by the results of your current one. Just as any good barista must do no matter what dosing technique they use.

          Properly done this is accomplished with never straying outside that perfect shot time. *Very rarely will my extraction time fall outside of the acceptable range. During the summer and winter it is almost unknown as the house is closed up and kept at pretty constant levels. In the spring and fall when the windows are all wide open is when I will see large variations.

          This also a very effective method where shots are being drawn relatively consistantly over the course of the day. Around here its about an extraction an hour.

          If you are only doing a few shots a day then it will not be as effective due to the larger variations between shots because of the greater amount of time between them.

          Dosing by weight really only works for a small group of people. Those who do roughly 10-30 extraction sessions (ie one or more shots done at the same time) that are evenly spaced through-out the day.

          If you do less the variations will be too great between sessions, and if you do more then the weighing becomes onerous.

          For this small group of people, using weight as a factor in the dosing equation works very well.

          For everybody else, volumetric is the other alternative.

          Brewing up the perfect cup is indeed an art. Using weight as part of the dosing equation does nothing to reduce that. No more than filling the basket to a predetermined level does. How you put all the varried components of making an espresso together and how you tweak them all until they come into that perfect harmonious balance of your perfect God Shot is an art and not a science. IMHO Science should be used to further your art, not replace it.

          Whether youre using the science of volume or the science of mass to determine how much coffee to use that is just a small part of what goes into making your perfect cuppa.

          Java "Fit the tools to the Job" phile"
          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Dose size discussion.

            FC
            Thanks for the plug.

            My only queery about weighing the coffee and the filter basket befor extracting, is that, by the time you load it back in the group handle the basket and handle will be cold. Not to mention the ground coffee would be starting to heat up. That is assuming you are keeping the handle and basket warm!!!!!!
            Then if you had tamped the coffee before weighing it, all the fiddling about could see you with a cracked cake. Then you will end up with channelling etc, etc.

            I have extracted a few bits form our book.

            Opinions differ as to what constitutes the perfect espresso. A formula for an espresso is as follows:
            Correctly dose and tamp enough freshly ground coffee in the group-handle filter basket. Place the group handle in the group head. Commence the extraction process immediately to produce 25–30 ml of richly flavoured coffee from a single spout in 25–30 seconds.

            When you are training, you should use this espresso formula as a reference point only. You should consider working within the formula’s parameters. Then, when you have gained experience, you should fully understand the variables and will be able to adapt your technique as required (see chapter 4, Extracting espresso coffee).

            Experienced baristas understand when to stop the extraction — that is, once the flavours of the ground coffee have been exhausted. For many baristas, the problem lies in not knowing when the flavours are exhausted. They allow too much water to pass through the coffee grounds, and the result is a bitter or burnt brew.

            SIX KEY ELEMENTS FOR CORRECT EXTRACTION
            1 The coffee beans must be freshly roasted.
            2 The coffee grinder must be clean and adjusted.
            3 The coffee must be freshly ground for each order.
            4 The water-filter system must be able to produce quality water.
            5 The espresso machine must be clean, and at the correct operating temperature and pressure.
            6 The barista must be knowledgeable and trained.

            DOSE QUANTITY
            The quantity of ground coffee (measured in grams) that is used for each espresso will vary depending on the size of the filter basket. Coffee quantity should be enough to fill the filter basket about 5 mm from the top of the basket rim after tamping. If you change the size of the filter basket, you will need to adjust the grinder (see chapter 3, Grinding coffee).


            COFFEE QUANTITY
            The amount of ground coffee to use per ‘shot’ depends on a number of variables, such as:
            type or blend of coffee
            size of filter basket
            ;D type of espresso machine
            > the barista’s packing (dosing, tamping) method.

            FILTER BASKETS
            The quantity of ground coffee that a filter basket can hold varies:
            :-[ single baskets — from 6 to 14 g
            :-* double baskets — from 12 to 22 g.

            The nominal number given to a filter-basket size might not be a true indication of the amount of ground coffee that the filter basket will hold; for example, an 8 g basket might actually hold 10–12 g of ground coffee when the coffee is tamped.

            It is important that you know that various sizes of filter basket are available. A barista may need to use a different-sized filter basket when:
            :-/ the coffee type is changed
            the problem of under-extraction occurs
            the problem of over-extraction occurs.

            For more detailed info you will have to buy the book. It will be available again in about a week.
            John

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            • #21
              Re: Dose size discussion.

              As always some excellent info there Pinot!

              On the weighing comments:

              My only queery about weighing the coffee and the filter basket befor extracting, is that, by the time you load it back in the group handle the basket and handle will be cold. Not to mention the ground coffee would be starting to heat up. That is assuming you are keeping the handle and basket warm!!!!!!
              Then if you had tamped the coffee before weighing it, all the fiddling about could see you with a cracked cake. Then you will end up with channelling etc, etc.
              Weigh the beans before grinding. ;D This eliminates all those downsides.

              Java "Gotta love good info" phile
              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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