Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Thanks all for the advice.
I got some better coffee, am knocking flat, am sticking to 14-15g (rather than dosing it to 18-19g) and am now getting a smoother espresso taste and crema from the first drop. In fact, gobs of it!
Actually I just cracked open the second bag I bought from the same store, some mexican organic. Hey, I had a $10 off voucher from the Entertainment Book! And they said they roast on-site and the beans were two days past roast.
Now its a bit streaky. It looks quite beautiful, those honey coloured lines contrasting with the darker shades, but something tells me it means it means the extraction is uneven. Is it the way Im tamping now? Or still the beans?
As for cafetto - yes, Ill pop down to another store where I have another voucher and get the proper cleaning solution.
Thanks for your help and analysis so far.
Dana
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
hey luca
i havent been in YET for the throwaway beans so dont fret
q re pouring consistently - when i use old beans i get ugly tornado heavily mousetailed shots. do u mean that i will get consistent AMOUNTS of espresso?
cheers
aaron
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Yargh! Didnt see this; Im only in on Saturday 9-1, so I hope that Dave Seng was able to help you.Originally posted by roknee link=1207705612/15#16 date=1207871692gday luca
ill be in this arvo so would love some thow-away beans.
i like the idea of the 5 shot challenge, and havent heard of it b4
just wondering if it would be more accurate with fresh rather than stale beans though?
aaron
Stale beans are fine for the purposes of testing out your dosing skills. You will have to grind finer than for fresh coffee and you will definitely need to backflush your machine after you finish, but they should pour quite consistently. In fact, competitors in barista competitions often have a preference for older coffee rather than fresher coffee because it is easier to work with. Five day old coffee in a barista comp is a death sentence!
Cheers,
Luca
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
gday luca
ill be in this arvo so would love some thow-away beans.
i like the idea of the 5 shot challenge, and havent heard of it b4
just wondering if it would be more accurate with fresh rather than stale beans though?
aaron
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Hey there,
First up, I guess Id better chime in and say that I work at First Pour, too.
From what you have written, it sounds to me like the coffee is a bit past it. The black start to the pour before seeing any crema is a dead giveaway, supported by what seems to be pretty quick blonding. Unfortunately, it sounds like Ross hard work at the roaster has been undermined by their retail staff. If I were you, Id definitely be making a point of asking how fresh their coffee is before I bought it.
It is difficult to lay down a hard and fast rule for how fresh coffee ought to be, as it varies with roast profile and packaging. At one extreme, coffee that isnt stored in airtight packaging might, for example, only be good between 4 and 7 days after roasting. At another extreme, nitrogen flushed coffee might be good for a seven day period anywhere between 3 and maybe even 6 weeks after roasting. A combination of asking and tasting will help you to figure out what suits you best.
TG is right on the money with the difference between the cleaners. Not only are the descaling sachets expensive, but theyre also not good detergents. If you have been using descaling powder instead of espresso machine detergent, you will probably benefit greatly from a proper chemical backflush.
I hesitate to mention it, but the rocky burrs could also be a culprit if they are old and needing replacement. I hesitate to mention it because, IMHO, its very easy to get lost in a maze of variables when starting out. I think that the two most important things to focus on are (a) getting good beans and (b) making sure that you are dosing consistently. I think that most people underestimate how hard it is to do that last one. I think that a good test would be to make five coffees on a row at the same grind setting, extract them to the same volume and time the results. You want the results to be within three or four seconds of each other, ideally. Any more than that and erratic dosing habits will obscure the effects of changing other variables. I remember that when I pulled multiple shots at different grind settings with my rocky the step sizes were quite bad, but the times that you mention seem to be a bit excessive.
I have been pushing the five shot challenge for quite a while now and I cant recall anyone actually trying it. I presume that this is because most people would consider throwing away five or so double shots of coffee to be quite wasteful. I consider the $5 of coffee to be a piddling investment compared with the possibility of having hundreds of dollars of coffee equipment lying around and not doing much good. Hell, if youre not going to drink the stuff, Im more than happy to give away some failed experimental roasts or anything else destined for the garbage bin. Just let me know in advance so that it doesnt get turfed. That offer is open to any CSers who can pick up their garbage coffee from First Pour.
Finally, I found it quite difficult to get good flavour from the last third of the shot when using my silvia/rocky combo. While youre starting off, it might not be a bad idea to cut your shots off at 2/3rds volume; ie. 40mL from a double basket ... probably in something like 20 seconds.
Report back and let us know how you go!
Best of luck,
Luca
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Gday danahooshmand,
Welcome to CoffeeSnobs....... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Dont think that Im trying to fob you off, I would never do that and besides, theres lots of great advice already been given. If you would like to read some really interesting and valuable information on how to squeeze the very best performance from your espresso system, pay a visit to Home Barista and in particular, this section, where they detail nearly everything you need to know about pouring excellent espresso.
All the best mate and have fun
,
Mal.
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Ill just quickly chime in.
Ross does an amazing job at Jasper as their roaster. Beans and Bagel...I walk past it all the time but never give it a second glance when crossing Johnson St on Brunswick St.
I practically live in Fitzroy although my home is in Clayton. I work at Veneziano as the manager of The First Pour.
Come visit...our beans wont disappoint...I promise!
Cheers,
David.
PS: Chris, you must have had a really awful barista pull you an extremely unacceptable espresso. Ive had a few acceptable espressos there. Considering they only offer single origin through their g10 or whatever machine expobar it is....
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Cafetto cleaning solution AFAIK only comes in a plastic jar.

The descaler comes in a sachet.

I would hope theyd know the difference. :
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
I was happy to hear cardboard because it didnt mean buying ANOTHER accessory! Ill get one though if its in the $5-10 range (as it should be). Abbotsford is riding distance (for now!) so Ill pop over once Ive exhausted the current supply.
Yeah, you know what, the cafetto is cafetto descaling powder. Either the shop assistant didnt know the difference or made a mistake handing met he wrong packet. No dramas, Ill go get some cafetto cleaning stuff.
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Let me second the advice to stop the shot as soon as it blonds. I use 18 grams in my double basket in a VBM Domobar and usually express about 20 ml of coffee in 20 to 25 seconds. What comes after than is quite pale and bitter and I dont like what it does to my mouth.
Check for yourself by swapping cups at 20 ml or so and express another 20 ml. Drink from both separately to get used to the different flavours, then combine and see what you like.
Good fresh beans are a must.
Your grind level sounds a bit coarse to me--maybe because Im aiming at 20 ml in 20 seconds, not 60 ml in 30 seconds.
Be persistent, it really is an art!
Greg
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
1. I cant believe that they suggested cardboard!
2. With buckets of brown sitting around the floor gathering dust and going stale, I reckon there are many better bean options. Last year, I had one of the worst (read 100 deg 80ml underextracted garbage) espressos there that I have ever experienced.
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Venezianos (aka First Pour) is on Bond Street in Abbotsford (VIC), just off Victoria Street in Richmond. While youre there for beans, also ask for a blind filter which works heaps better than cardboard in the basket for backflushing. Ive tried the beans at Jasper and Ive got to say they were good so I suspect it may not be the beans. Might help to know when they were roasted though.Originally posted by danahooshmand link=1207705612/0#4 date=1207713120Thanks for your replies!
So far Ive taken
Updosing: Pack 17-18 grams into the Silvia basket. Possibly also grinding slightly coarser.
Blonding: Stop the shot when it goes yellow, ignoring the 60 seconds rule
Cleaning: use cafetto to backflush.
Tamping: dont tap; rap.
I am using cafetto! Its a satchet of cafetto powder. A guy at Jasper took a while explaining how to use it in a Silvia. Piece of thin cardboard to block the single basket holes (but not totally), half a teaspoon of powder, run it for a few seconds a few times, then flush clean a few more times. I havent googled cleaning much, and Ill do so soon before asking any questions.
Coffee: get better beans! this is undoubtedly a big part of it.
So what are these coffeesnobs brown and veneziano beans? Is this the bean bay? Im unclear how to order beans through coffeesnobs and totally in the dark about how to pick them up. Melbourne by any chance, or Sydney?
Anyway Ill go explore (but would appreciate an answer anyway).
Dana
As for the backflushing procedure itself, it aint one of my favourite things to do and I was about to put up a post asking how long does a typical backflushing take from start to finish just to see if Im making an easy task hard.
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
To add to the whole descale versus backflush detergent. If it is descaler, usually after descaling you need to flush REALLY well, and also your first shot after should be a "sink shot" that is pull a shot and throw it away as it wont taste great and you need to put a few of the oils back into your machine.
If you are using descaler this could be part of the reason behind the slightly off tasting shot as well.
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Guest repliedRe: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Hmm, cafetto make both backflushing powder and descale, so just have a check which youve got. I dont know what hes talking about with some cardboard, can you use a blind filter on a Silvia? I wouldnt know??
Im going to agree with everyone else, Id suspect stale beans are your problem. Try to buy stuff with a roasted on date on it, so you know exactly how old it is.
CS Brown are available on this site, you can have them mailed to you just click on BeanBay, then click brown beans and see what takes your fancy.
Or you could go to Venezianos (or cuppacoffees or several other sponsors) website and see what theyre offering. So much good coffee, so little time!
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Re: Diagnosis of an espresso shot
Click on the sponsors logs on lh side of CS home page. CS brown has some great beans and you can purchase them online. Several sponsors also have great beans and also sell online.
All the above advice should get you on track, once you have quality beans you should start to produce better espresso until eventually producing great espresso.....stick with it and good luck...............gm
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