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  • #16
    Re: Ordering weak coffee

    Originally posted by scoota gal link=1210563767/0#10 date=1210587609
    And I agree that most people think that "strong" actually equates to "bitter". We really experienced that at "Celebrate the Bean" the other month. So many people couldnt believe it when you explained that coffee should not have any bitterness.
    Hate to point out the obvious, but coffee is BITTER! A good coffee should be sweet (extremely hard to coax out with espresso), have a good acidity and be bitter. Not overly or unbalanced. A good coffee will be balanced between these 3 aspects. Anyone who claims coffee isnt bitter needs to get a new tongue. : Those who do not like coffee are extremely sensitive to how bitter coffee is. Those of us who cup 20+ espressos in 30 minutes will find only some coffees extremely bitter and other extremely sweet or acidic. Our palates get used to this bitterness. I like bitterness is coffee, it can be a pleasant dimension to the coffee. Just as long as the bitterness doesnt present itself as ashy or burnt.

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    • #17
      Re: Ordering weak coffee

      Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1210563767/15#15 date=1210602670
      Originally posted by scoota gal link=1210563767/0#10 date=1210587609
      And I agree that most people think that "strong" actually equates to "bitter". We really experienced that at "Celebrate the Bean" the other month. So many people couldnt believe it when you explained that coffee should not have any bitterness.
      Hate to point out the obvious, but coffee is BITTER! A good coffee should be sweet (extremely hard to coax out with espresso), have a good acidity and be bitter. Not overly or unbalanced. A good coffee will be balanced between these 3 aspects. Anyone who claims coffee isnt bitter needs to get a new tongue. : Those who do not like coffee are extremely sensitive to how bitter coffee is. Those of us who cup 20+ espressos in 30 minutes will find only some coffees extremely bitter and other extremely sweet or acidic. Our palates get used to this bitterness. I like bitterness is coffee, it can be a pleasant dimension to the coffee. Just as long as the bitterness doesnt present itself as ashy or burnt.
      Good point Wushoes - David S. I too believe coffee has a bitterness to it. Especially noticeable when you first start drinking it and especially short blacks. "Burnt" taste is the second most popular complaint, so i think bitter and burnt are the description the customers are trying to get across to me.(not my coffee by the way).

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      • #18
        Re: Ordering weak coffee

        Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1210563767/15#15 date=1210602670
        Anyone who claims coffee isnt bitter needs to get a new tongue. :
        Oh well, obviously I have to get a new tongue then... :

        Good coffee doesnt taste bitter to me. So going by what you say, I must not be drinking coffee! :

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        • #19
          Re: Ordering weak coffee

          Hey scoota gal. To me coffee doesnt taste bitter anymore. to me it is the elexier of the gods.( is that how you spell that word?) only when i started first drinking short blacks i thought i could detect bitterness. Then again what is the best description of bitterness? is it like lemon or something. Maybe some of you cuppers out their could help me out here.

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          • #20
            Re: Ordering weak coffee

            Theres good bitter and theres bad bitter.

            Bad bitter - over-extract a shot (try pulling 30ml in 60secs or longer, for example) and taste it. Very bad bitter, burnt bitter etc.

            I believe good espresso does have a bitterness to it (for starters it does contain caffeine, which is incredibly bitter). Just as good dark chocolate has a bitterness to it. Perhaps bitter-sweet makes it less confusing. Its a well-balanced bitter. Maybe people dont notice it when its balanced out by the sweetness and acidity of a good shot.

            I think I heard recently that a reasonable % of the population is bitter-blind, which is interesting, though Im having trouble digging up any references to support that.

            And then theres the subjective: if someone says it aint bitter, then, to them, it aint bitter! You cant just dismiss someone because they dont taste what you do.

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            • #21
              Re: Ordering weak coffee

              Spot on Michelle. Every persons tastebuds are differnt.

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              • #22
                Re: Ordering weak coffee

                Humans are a strange breed of cattle!!!

                Some of us a colour blind - cant tell red from green, some of us have a strange hearing problem - look at the music we think is great....... our sense of smell and what smells "good" varies....... so why would our sense of taste be any different!

                Our senses are "trained" from an early age...... "Look at the red ball"..... so our brain registers whatever we see as red.... and that is reinforced every time we see something and are told it is "red"...... but who knows if we all see exactly the same thing...... we have been conditioned to call that optical stimuli "red" - plain and simple....

                Some people find something sweet... "sickly"..... maybe that is unusual sensitivity to the sweet stimuli..... maybe it is as a result of conditioning from an early age..... who knows....

                I love dark chocolate.... the darker and purer the better..... i.e very little or no sugar..... there is a little bitterness there.... only a little to my palate - but to others "How could you eat that - its so bitter?"

                So whether it is from differences in our genetics, the way our senses have been "trained" or even in some cases - our desire to please others..... everyones sense of sight, hearing, smell and taste are different - or perceived as different..... and that isnt a bad thing - just something we have to be aware of!!

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                • #23
                  Re: Ordering weak coffee

                  Some days my initial first sip has a bitter taste but as soon as it reaches the back of my mouth and tongue the richer characteristics take over and fill my mouth with wonderful taste sensations.
                  Overextracted espresso is another matter, it is bitter and burnt and not nice at all Jan!!!!

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                  • #24
                    Re: Ordering weak coffee

                    Id like espresso without the crema. Often I find most of the off-tastes are in the crema itself.

                    I dont find pure dark chocolate bitter, its more sour to me.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Ordering weak coffee

                      A lot of what we taste is determined by our sense of smell..... it "pre conditions" our brain to expect certain stimuli on our tongue to be activated (Ever seen the experiment when a blindfolded subject was give a sweet smelling odour stimuli and asked to eat an onion - they thought it was an apple!!!)

                      So as there are more volatiles in the crema..... that stimulates your olfactory senses.... and you sense of taste gets skewed!!

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                      • #26
                        Re: Ordering weak coffee

                        My basic experience came when I started taking my espresso machine to work every Thursday before Easter and treating the staff to coffee and hot cross buns.
                        Most people who said they wanted their coffee weak were quite happy drinking *my* DOUBLES, and often had two or three!
                        My assumption from this was that weak coffee was wanted mostly because the standard coffee they had experienced was so bitter and over-extracted, and the milk over-heated, that they wanted less of that flavour.
                        There were a few who diluted even my shots because they really wanted a weak coffee, but they were the minority.
                        Greg

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                        • #27
                          Re: Ordering weak coffee

                          Originally posted by JavaB link=1210563767/15#24 date=1210636737
                          So as there are more volatiles in the crema..... that stimulates your olfactory senses.... and you sense of taste gets skewed!!
                          But there often does seem to be more bitterness in crema, even if the liquid below does not taste bitter. This is not olfactory, since bitterness is not an aroma, but tasted on the tongue. The volatiles that are released in the mouth dont prevent you tasting the bitterness, if its there. The reason the onion test works, is that the taster has their nose blocked, so they only sense the acidity and texture, which must resemble apple. Open your nose, and you will get a shock.

                          Mind you, all this is dependent on an individuals sensitivity to bitterness, and their reaction to it, as well as their expectations about what their drink should taste like. If there were absolutely no bitterness in coffee at all, then I would find it too much like hot chocolate, or similar beverage. Even with cocoa, I like some bitterness to make it more intense, like bitter chocolate - or coffee. And there are bright bitters and dull bitters. And certainly Michelle is right about balance.

                          But you only have to look at the long lines of people at outdoor events ordering very sweet hot chocolates with tons of milk and a marshmallow to see that most people prefer to highlight sweetness rather than bitterness, especially for comfort. If the milks done right, a weak coffee will naturally be sweeter.

                          matt

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                          • #28
                            Re: Ordering weak coffee

                            Mmmm,

                            I love the Crema of a nicely poured espresso made with decent beans. Always seems more intense rather than bitter to my palate, kind of sizzles on the tongue and I cant get enough of the stuff. Mind you, if the shot hasnt been poured properly or less than optimum beans used, then bitter is probably too short a word to describe the taste.... :P

                            Mal.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Ordering weak coffee

                              I wouldnt say its because the coffees not extracted properly, or well. And its not necessarily bad, either. It just seems to be the case that any bitterness there is can be more concentrated in the crema, even when unnoticeable in the body of the espresso. Its something Ive often seen commented upon in the literature as an observation, rather than a criticism. Cant remember the explanation, but Im sure there is one.

                              matt

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