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Converting the smell of ground beans into taste in the cup

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  • oldbeamer2
    replied
    Thank you all so much for your feedback.

    Leave a comment:


  • coffeechris
    replied
    Originally posted by oldbeamer2 View Post
    I've recently bought a second hand Gene Cafe and it's bought up my roasting game a fair bit.

    A couple of roasts ago I walked into the roasting room the day after a roast and it smelled like a fruit cake in there.

    Last roast didn't smell so nice in the room, but now when I grind the beans they are releasing a wonderful caramel smell. I can almost taste it, rich, sweet, like biscuits in the oven.

    When I pull a shot on my Pavoni lever (that I am still learning how to use, should only be a few more years), or brew in the AeroPress the promise that the grinding smell made, is not fulfilled by the taste in the cup.

    It tastes nice but not at all like the caramel smell that was released during grinding. It tastes like coffee, not the biscuits!

    I've known a lot of teas like that too. You open the bag and they smell like fruits, vanilla, cocoa whatever. But when brewed they don't reflect that smell.

    So what I want to ask is this ... is there a way to make the coffee taste like the smell that it produces when grinding? Is it an impossible dream because the heat of the water simply destroys the complex taste molecules? Or is it something that's easy as pie and most other people can do but because I'm doing something wrong I'm not getting it?

    As you can imagine, I would really appreciate any help! thank you.
    Hi there,

    I think expectation can sometimes out weight what you actually get after you pull a shot. Don't get me wrong, you want your shot of coffee to taste nice and be how you imagined it to be. However I always remember that the colour wheel for taste and aroma are two different things and you cant always expect to taste what you can smell as much as most of us would love too.
    I feel this is especially the case when we take ground coffee and do what we do to it by putting it under pressure with hot water.

    That said if you are getting undesirable tastes in your coffee there my ba a underlying issues with either the roasting or extraction of the coffee.

    Just my two cents, but please believe me when I say I also wish i could taste what i smell from roasted coffee.

    cheers,

    Chris

    Leave a comment:


  • Lyrebird
    replied
    Originally posted by oldbeamer2 View Post
    is there a way to make the coffee taste like the smell that it produces when grinding? Is it an impossible dream because the heat of the water simply destroys the complex taste molecules?u.
    No there isn't but no it isn't the heat.

    The presence of water changes the balance of the aroma components. There is a dicussion in Flament's excellent book "Coffee Flavour Chemistry" where researchers made volatile extracts of coffee beans on filter papers and tracked their evolution over a period of days (they were interested in staling). They assessed the aromas of the dry papers and after extracting in hot water and noted big differences.

    This is as expected: the less polar flavour compounds are less likely to be extracted into water as they will be outside their solubility spheres. The more polar compounds are more likely to be extracted but will be volatilised from the fluid less, this being due to the forces binding them to the water.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackster
    replied
    I'm using a near espresso grind in my aeropress. 18g and stainless filter. A short inverted brew of 1:30. Press full of water. Turn over and press. It's hard to press, go slow, careful not to blow out side of filter at base.
    Brew longer if you want stronger, or shorter for less bitter.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldbeamer2
    replied
    Ok, so I see this isn't going to be a quick fix. It's great to have got your input.

    Thank you both so much.

    This morning I did tighten up the shot a bit and stopped it early and it was certainly a richer flavour. I will experiment with the aeropress this afternoon.

    Unfortunately the caramel smell after grinding was gone this morning!

    Leave a comment:


  • lancruiser
    replied
    When you brew your coffee, other compounds are extracted. These compounds are stronger than the aroma you get from grinding alone. The aroma is still there but overpowered by other flavours.

    Case in point: Ethiopia Harrar has a hint of blueberries but I could not taste it. However, I smell it when I burp.

    Leave a comment:


  • ElShauno
    replied
    If you can get your temp under control with the La Pavoni, you actually have a machine that will help you get the best out of your beans due to the ability to manage pressure. Try a 3-bar infusion until the coffee 'sweats' (starts to bead on the bottom of the basket, if you're using naked, or drip from spout if not) and then ramp up to 9-bar.

    Also, different beans have different density - so to get the most out of them you need to account for both roast level and density. This is where pre-infusion/low pressure infusion can assist. This video produced by La Marzocco @ Home this year was a good crash course on understanding that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAvtE1T_yvA

    Good luck and have fun. It's taken me a good 10 years to learn espresso, and I feel as though I'm just getting in control of the situation, but with still so much to learn now about different beans etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • flynnaus
    replied
    Taste and smell are closely linked - you can't taste very well if your sense of smell is weak (like when you have a stuffy nose from a cold).
    As for reproducing the smells as flavours in your cup, a bit more challenging. You can do as simonsk8er said and tighten your grind which will slow the path of water through the puck, hopefully picking up more flavours . They may not always be the flavours hinted at by the aroma of the beans. I think you are going to be in the usual situation of trying for yourself.
    Water temperature may also play a part but I don't understand enough of the science to know what temperature will produce the desired taste.

    Using a full immersion brewer like the Aeropress could also work but, again, you will need to play around with the quantities, grind and recipe to produce that elusive brew that tastes as good as the roasted beans promise.

    Throw in the fact that beans change as they age and you have another variable..Good luck on your quest .

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Originally posted by oldbeamer2 View Post
    Thank you so much for your help so far, I'm looking forward to experimenting tomorrow morning. Would I have more predicable results, for this particular purpose, with the aeropress?
    Ah no worries! Hmm it's hard to say, as it will depend on the particular roast level used, and what this bean expresses at different levels. My only thought is to try both, but also that the fragrance (of the ground coffee) is only one component of the coffee, and what you can extract out can far supersede that one aspect. But my thought is that if a bean has a certain fragrance it should reflect in some way in the beverage (it's all linked, taste buds, olfactory etc)

    Leave a comment:


  • oldbeamer2
    replied
    Thank you so much for your help so far, I'm looking forward to experimenting tomorrow morning.

    Would I have more predicable results, for this particular purpose, with the aeropress?

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Originally posted by oldbeamer2 View Post
    Ok, so assuming that the pressure is constant, that means a tighter grind, and stopping the shot early (or not letting as much water into the chamber). Is that correct?
    Yeah that's it, and is what I would try, may not work, but it may emphasise certain prominence of flavours, especially for caramelly flavours. But many variables at hand. Oh and also just realised you have a lever machine, I know little to nothing about their use haha, hopefully someone else can chime in

    Leave a comment:


  • oldbeamer2
    replied
    Ok, so assuming that the pressure is constant, that means a tighter grind, and stopping the shot early (or not letting as much water into the chamber). Is that correct?

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    It's a great question oldbeamer2! I'm curious as to what others say, all I will say is you may have to change up the brew method itself to get flavours coming through that may resemble the smell when ground up. Espresso may simply not cut it with getting that, so subsequently roasting lighter for filter may be more appropriate.

    BUT that being said, if you've ground up the espresso-roasted beans and are getting the amazing aromas but not the taste, tweak a few variables and see what comes out. Slow down the shot so you hit 1:2 in 35s, 40s, don't be afraid to experiment and think outside the box. Some really spicy-smelling (best way I can describe it haha) coffees I couldn't get that spice super prominent until I really slowed the shot down. Even try speeding up the shot. I would think for caramelly flavours to have a normal flowing shot, or slightly slower shot. Try different ratios (for lighter roasts you can even push it out to 1:2.25/2.5, darker try 1:1.5/1.75).

    My suggestion: slow it down a tad, AND cut to a shorter ratio (1:1.75), so that the first 2/3s of the shot are emphasised (acids and sugars).

    Let us know how you go! I've bought some top tier roasted beans that smelled pineappley, ground up really amplified that, and the espresso........ that in spades and MORE.

    Leave a comment:


  • Converting the smell of ground beans into taste in the cup

    I've recently bought a second hand Gene Cafe and it's bought up my roasting game a fair bit.

    A couple of roasts ago I walked into the roasting room the day after a roast and it smelled like a fruit cake in there.

    Last roast didn't smell so nice in the room, but now when I grind the beans they are releasing a wonderful caramel smell. I can almost taste it, rich, sweet, like biscuits in the oven.

    When I pull a shot on my Pavoni lever (that I am still learning how to use, should only be a few more years), or brew in the AeroPress the promise that the grinding smell made, is not fulfilled by the taste in the cup.

    It tastes nice but not at all like the caramel smell that was released during grinding. It tastes like coffee, not the biscuits!

    I've known a lot of teas like that too. You open the bag and they smell like fruits, vanilla, cocoa whatever. But when brewed they don't reflect that smell.

    So what I want to ask is this ... is there a way to make the coffee taste like the smell that it produces when grinding? Is it an impossible dream because the heat of the water simply destroys the complex taste molecules? Or is it something that's easy as pie and most other people can do but because I'm doing something wrong I'm not getting it?

    As you can imagine, I would really appreciate any help! thank you.
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