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Double ristretto base - commercial

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  • #16
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Personally, I agree with YeeZa - I think that it depends on the blend and, probably, on the machine. If, for example, you have a blend of all washed coffees that is relatively lightly roasted, a double ristretto will probably make for a milk drink with much more body. If that blend were instead comprised of, say, pulped naturals and roasted to a medium level, a double ristretto will probably still be a great base for a milk-based drink, but a full-length single 30ml espresso base will also make for a nice coffee. If you have an e61 machine and it takes a long time before you see the first drips, there is probably less need to restrict your shots than if your pressure ramped up faster.

    Pat, I usually find that increasing intensity decreases complexity.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    • #17
      Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

      Originally posted by luca link=1216451409/0#15 date=1217088280
      I usually find that increasing intensity decreases complexity.
      i agree, not only complexity but the balance changes completely. Of course certain coffees will take to resticted pours more than others, but I really enjoy the higher notes and delicate acidity that you can balance with body of an espresso over a ristretto.

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      • #18
        Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

        totally agree. Though on positive point, i think tuning up the grind to pull a double rist. is a good way to make terrible coffee drinkable

        And personally I hate when I order a drink and I comes with a double ristretto as the base. If thats what I wanted, I would have ordered it that way, but each to their own.

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        • #19
          Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

          The other side of this discussion to look at is the effect of restricting the pour while maintaining the espresso characteristics. What I mean by this is the loose term ristretto does not have a defined volume. Also the deffinition of an espresso is 25-35 ml in 20-30 secs (according to AASCA).

          a 25ml espresso poured in 30 secs is going to taste a lot more restricted than a 35ml espresso poured in 20 secs.

          So for every espresso we pour we have to decide how much to restrict it to achieve the desired result. There are a number of ways of doing this namely dose, grind, basket size. In a commercial setting these need to be fixed for consistency.

          We opt for a 18gm basket but severly down-dose. Our actual ideal dose is 17 grams and we pour 25-28 ml in 26-28 secs. We find for our house blend that this works well with the perfect intensity - complexity relationship.

          With our single origins however it is decided while dialling in the grind and often changed as the coffee does. At the moment we are also serving a Kenyan Dorman AA which needs to be a touch under 25 ml with a higher dose, of course this will change as the coffee ages.

          Without offending anyone (hopefully) I have known alot of people, myself included, who have at some point sworn ristretto over espresso. As their palletts have developed and their minds opened to different styles of coffee and baristas they start really enjoy espresso over ristretto. I can see the merits of ristretto bases but personally would look at working on roasting, blending and buying to achieve similar if not better results in the cup.

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          • #20
            Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

            As a wide eyed newb to home espresso I find all of the above, and in particular what Pioneer Roaster has written, very interesting.

            Ive found trying to stick to a firm timed outcome extremely challenging. Just as Im sure my dose will vary by maybe 0.5gm, it is pretty consistent as is my tamp. What my experience has taught me to this point is that throughout the day the grind has to be tweaked. But thats where it gets interesting in relation to PRs post above...

            Ive run shots say, early morning, using last nights grind setting. It becomes clear that the flow is "tighter" than optimal and if I cut the double shot after 25 seconds Ill end up with only about 30 - 40 ml. Sometimes Ive instead just watched what is coming out of the spout. While it has crema and some striation Ive let it go resulting in a 60 ml double in maybe 45 seconds! And its tasted magnificent! :-/ When Ive cut it dutifully at the 25-30 second mark its tasted "hollow" and lacking.

            Again, stressing my inexperience, Ive found that the poor shots are usually the quick ones - two coarse, poor tamp or channeled. Its probably wrong but because of this I tend to stray to a finer grind and allow it it take that little longer to produce my shot. It seems to suit my taste buds perfectly. :-?

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            • #21
              Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

              Ive made a few coffees on a VBM the same as yours Wrecker and find a 35 sec shot is very nice to drink, comes back to the different machines and the fact that its good to learn the standard but then play around till you find what you like.

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              • #22
                Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                Originally posted by jimmyb link=1216451409/20#20 date=1217200262
                Ive made a few coffees on a VBM the same as yours Wrecker and find a 35 sec shot is very nice to drink, comes back to the different machines and the fact that its good to learn the standard but then play around till you find what you like.
                Thanks Jimmyb, that actually helps. Im now 4 weeks into this journey and have found that for me and my machine longer is better. I have several regular "customers" who have all agreed. I also dont count from pulling the handle. I start the count from the moment the pressure ramps and the fluid begins to pour.

                Two things sent me down this path. I read a review somewhere about "the perfect shot" in which the author wrote about watching the pour and staying with it whilst there was crema and striation. The second was one night with guests arriving while I was "dialling in the grind" for the dinner party. I ran two "long" shots and declared that the grind was too fine. I set them aside while I made the last tweak to bring it towards the 25 second pour. My two early arrivals grabbed the "too long" ones and decided to sip them before I could toss em and declared them to be wonderful. I proudly produced my 25 second 60 ml perfecto and when they tried it they declared the rejects much smoother and more balanced. I took the punt based on that advice (I was afterall making coffee for my guests) and reverted to the finer grind and longer shot. All guests declared the coffees I served after dinner to be among the best theyd ever had and despite the caffeine all went for seconds. Ive stuck with tighter longer duration shots ever since...

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                • #23
                  Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                  Originally posted by Wrecker link=1216451409/0#19 date=1217198287
                  As a wide eyed newb to home espresso I find all of the above, and in particular what Pioneer Roaster has written, very interesting.

                  Ive found trying to stick to a firm timed outcome extremely challenging.  Just as Im sure my dose will vary by maybe 0.5gm, it is pretty consistent as is my tamp.  What my experience has taught me to this point is that throughout the day the grind has to be tweaked.  But thats where it gets interesting in relation to PRs post above...

                  Ive run shots say, early morning, using last nights grind setting.  It becomes clear that the flow is "tighter" than optimal and if I cut the double shot after 25 seconds Ill end up with only about 30 - 40 ml.  Sometimes Ive instead just watched what is coming out of the spout.  While it has crema and some striation Ive let it go resulting in a 60 ml double in maybe 45 seconds!    And its tasted magnificent!  :-/  When Ive cut it dutifully at the 25-30 second mark its tasted "hollow" and lacking.

                  Again, stressing my inexperience, Ive found that the poor shots are usually the quick ones - two coarse, poor tamp or channeled.  Its probably wrong but because of this I tend to stray to a finer grind and allow it it take that little longer to produce my shot.  It seems to suit my taste buds  perfectly.  :-?
                  What the flow looks like and then of course what it tastes like is much more important than the numbers.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                    when I want a dopio ristretto I order one, when I want a milk coffee based on a dopio ristretto, I order one
                    I would hate if someone served me a dopio ristretto when I just ordered a short black or a latte, just like the other way around...
                    I mean, if they just do it - its no good. In some cafes they say "this SO we have on special will be very nice as a latte if you make a double shot base", then its a recommendation, then its different, I would never say no, if the barista recommends something - he/she knows their blends better than I do...

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                    • #25
                      Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                      Fair call chartres, but that is only if they know...

                      Like all of us most likely, Ive taken a keen interest of late when Im walking past or visiting cafes / coffee joints. In most if not all the machines are semi autos and in a great many they pull the shots into shot glasses with little measure lines. In one place I sat in with a good possie to observe they had this handled grinder. Theyd load the PF, hit a button and out would come a no doubt "measured" dose. Then theyd pull this handle thingy that did the tamping. The problem was (in my opinion) that heaps of grounds spilled out during the dosing then even more during the tamping. Then theyd load the PF into one of the 3 groups going and put these shot glasses under the spout(s) to catch the shot. The 3 groups were delivering slightly different level shots. Just to add spice to the observations, the shot glasses were constantly recycled. In the 30 minutes I observed never was a new clean one introduced or an old one cleaned.

                      When my wife finally arrived from whatever shop she was in (hence me waiting and using the time...) I said to her based on what I observed that I could definitely make coffee to that particular places quality...Use a dirty shot glass, haphazardly fill the PF and just squash it into place, run the shot "there or there abouts" and viola! I wont mention how many times they used the same milk jug with bits of old milk and froth in it before someone thought it might be a good idea to wash it out.

                      Frankly, that Barista couldve recommended anything to me and I wouldve politely declined.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                        Originally posted by luca link=1216451409/0#15 date=1217088280
                        If you have an e61 machine and it takes a long time before you see the first drips, there is probably less need to restrict your shots than if your pressure ramped up faster.
                        Hi Luca

                        I’m really interested in knowing more about this.  Does it mean that if you are trying to work by the numbers (ie aiming for 30ml in 30secs single espresso) that you wouldn’t start the timing until the flow starts?

                        cheers

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                        • #27
                          Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                          I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                            Originally posted by Thundergod link=1216451409/20#26 date=1217293264
                            I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.
                            Hi TG,

                            I think that for those who have machines with inbuilt pre-infusion, its difficult to suggest a count based on flicking a switch or raising a lever- For example, a Minore II infusion is much slower than that on other brands. Once you know your machine, I guess its possible in your specific case.

                            That said, I never count. For me its about the balance of the shot to produce the best espresso. Making a pour conform with a "rule" is not always the best answer....

                            Chris

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                            • #29
                              Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                              Originally posted by Wrecker link=1216451409/20#24 date=1217224974
                              Fair call chartres, but that is only if they know...

                              ...
                              Frankly, that Barista couldve recommended anything to me and I wouldve politely declined.
                              well, you are right, of course... I am not sure, though, that in that place barista would have recommended you double shot for your milk drink because of a particular profile of the roast... I mean they probably didnt have a clue in the first place...
                              I was more talking about a place where I know people take their coffee seriously or at least give that impression. If you ask for a dopio ristretto and you see puzzled eyes looking back at you, thats probably reason enough to change order for tea right that moment ;-)
                              However, the topic started with a reference to a cafe where they chose to use dopio ristretto as a base for their drinks, presumably knowing the basic stuff and presumably wanting to achieve some specific effect (albeit without asking customers ;-), but who knows, maybe they were right, in fact. Maybe their roast was showing particularly good in a latte when it was a dopio ristretto... Knowing that they did it on purpose, however, would be nice.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

                                Extraction of the shot should include pre-infusion.

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