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Double ristretto base - commercial

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  • yeeza
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1216451409/20#27 date=1217293840
    Originally posted by Thundergod link=1216451409/20#26 date=1217293264
    I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.
    Hi TG,

    I think that for those who have machines with inbuilt pre-infusion, its difficult to suggest a count based on flicking a switch or raising a lever- For example, a Minore II infusion is much slower than that on other brands. Once you know your machine, I guess its possible in your specific case.

    That said, I never count. For me its about the balance of the shot to produce the best espresso. Making a pour conform with a "rule" is not always the best answer....

    Chris
    Yeah some good points being raised here. Things differ from machine to machine. Like Chris has said, the Minore II has a slower infusion than others. I used to read things like if the pour isnt coming through after 7 seconds thats it, sink shot. ok, maybe not sink shot but used to freak me out that sometimes I wasnt getting any pour after 8-9 seconds. That was when I first got the machine. Ive learnt to adjust and realise that this brain box is giving different messages compared to other prosumers I had used. Ive noticed slight differences in the ramp pressure/speed also in other machines. All part of the learning curve.
    I rarely time my pours. Mainly only when Im running a new bean or adjusting the grinder back from a courser (for syphon or p-over), or sometimes just for the heck of it. When I do time, its from the time I lift the lever. But I always go by colour.

    I reckon youve gotta add in pre-infusion to your pours when timing - I mean the coffee has started brewing.

    my 2.02c

    Leave a comment:


  • Wrecker
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Thank you TG and Dennis. I felt it was time I went out on a limb and posted what Ive been doing. To get support and encouragement removes the last of the lingering doubt...

    As ridiculous as this may sound, my wife the (formerly) non coffee drinker proved to be probably my best indicator. She now has her "long shot" every morning (short black cut a tad short with about 20 ml hot water added). Since giving up the 25 second theory and strangling it out to 35-40 seconds (which makes her sort of ristretto shot about 25 -30) she has declared the shots to be consistent, and more importantly superior in taste and balance to the first one that got her hooked in the first place. She also adds that theres no "twinge" - which after tasting one I presume is her way of saying the acidity and other flavours are balanced.

    Now she complains that the two times shes tried to show off her new found fondness for coffee with workmates at cafes the experience has been abysmal. Im kinda taking some pride in that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Wrecker, stick with what youre doing - if it works for you, and your customers then hang the rules!

    Leave a comment:


  • Thundergod
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Ill take colour over seconds every time.

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  • Wrecker
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Guys, I keep stressing Im very new to this so pinch of salt if necessary - my process is based on results and taste with my gear. I started taking notes on day one so Id have observations to go back to. My posts are based on those observations.

    Every time I changed beans - and as stated during the day with the same beans - I studiously adjusted grind for the magical approx 25 seconds (from pressure ramp). I was and still am convinced that my dose and tamp procedure is consistent enough for only the smallest variation as not to matter (+/- a second).

    The problem was the results - which at the end of all we do and say is what matters. Grinding finer and pulling longer (more of a mouse tail instead of rat tail...whatever that means anyway) was delivering far superior tasting shots both short black and flat white. The 25 second shots were good, just not AS good and it is now via about 10 sets of taste buds - not just mine.

    I dont question the guide or suggest in any way it is wrong. I just found for me and mine I needed to add time to it. And if the rule of thumb is to count from the handle coming up well...add another 4 seconds!

    I find watching the colour and consistency of what is coming out of the spout(s) is my BEST indicator of wether itll be good, bad or somewhere in between.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Im with Chris. Every machine is different and I think counting is a guide, not a rule. If you decide to time the shot it doesnt matter when you start, as long as you start at the same point in the process, every time.

    Isnt it more important to make a determination based on what you see pouring into the cup?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wine_of_the_Bean
    Guest replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Extraction of the shot should include pre-infusion.

    Leave a comment:


  • chartres
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Originally posted by Wrecker link=1216451409/20#24 date=1217224974
    Fair call chartres, but that is only if they know...

    ...
    Frankly, that Barista couldve recommended anything to me and I wouldve politely declined.
    well, you are right, of course... I am not sure, though, that in that place barista would have recommended you double shot for your milk drink because of a particular profile of the roast... I mean they probably didnt have a clue in the first place...
    I was more talking about a place where I know people take their coffee seriously or at least give that impression. If you ask for a dopio ristretto and you see puzzled eyes looking back at you, thats probably reason enough to change order for tea right that moment ;-)
    However, the topic started with a reference to a cafe where they chose to use dopio ristretto as a base for their drinks, presumably knowing the basic stuff and presumably wanting to achieve some specific effect (albeit without asking customers ;-), but who knows, maybe they were right, in fact. Maybe their roast was showing particularly good in a latte when it was a dopio ristretto... Knowing that they did it on purpose, however, would be nice.

    Leave a comment:


  • TC
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Originally posted by Thundergod link=1216451409/20#26 date=1217293264
    I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.
    Hi TG,

    I think that for those who have machines with inbuilt pre-infusion, its difficult to suggest a count based on flicking a switch or raising a lever- For example, a Minore II infusion is much slower than that on other brands. Once you know your machine, I guess its possible in your specific case.

    That said, I never count. For me its about the balance of the shot to produce the best espresso. Making a pour conform with a "rule" is not always the best answer....

    Chris

    Leave a comment:


  • Thundergod
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.

    Leave a comment:


  • _moby_
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Originally posted by luca link=1216451409/0#15 date=1217088280
    If you have an e61 machine and it takes a long time before you see the first drips, there is probably less need to restrict your shots than if your pressure ramped up faster.
    Hi Luca

    I’m really interested in knowing more about this.  Does it mean that if you are trying to work by the numbers (ie aiming for 30ml in 30secs single espresso) that you wouldn’t start the timing until the flow starts?

    cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • Wrecker
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Fair call chartres, but that is only if they know...

    Like all of us most likely, Ive taken a keen interest of late when Im walking past or visiting cafes / coffee joints. In most if not all the machines are semi autos and in a great many they pull the shots into shot glasses with little measure lines. In one place I sat in with a good possie to observe they had this handled grinder. Theyd load the PF, hit a button and out would come a no doubt "measured" dose. Then theyd pull this handle thingy that did the tamping. The problem was (in my opinion) that heaps of grounds spilled out during the dosing then even more during the tamping. Then theyd load the PF into one of the 3 groups going and put these shot glasses under the spout(s) to catch the shot. The 3 groups were delivering slightly different level shots. Just to add spice to the observations, the shot glasses were constantly recycled. In the 30 minutes I observed never was a new clean one introduced or an old one cleaned.

    When my wife finally arrived from whatever shop she was in (hence me waiting and using the time...) I said to her based on what I observed that I could definitely make coffee to that particular places quality...Use a dirty shot glass, haphazardly fill the PF and just squash it into place, run the shot "there or there abouts" and viola! I wont mention how many times they used the same milk jug with bits of old milk and froth in it before someone thought it might be a good idea to wash it out.

    Frankly, that Barista couldve recommended anything to me and I wouldve politely declined.

    Leave a comment:


  • chartres
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    when I want a dopio ristretto I order one, when I want a milk coffee based on a dopio ristretto, I order one
    I would hate if someone served me a dopio ristretto when I just ordered a short black or a latte, just like the other way around...
    I mean, if they just do it - its no good. In some cafes they say "this SO we have on special will be very nice as a latte if you make a double shot base", then its a recommendation, then its different, I would never say no, if the barista recommends something - he/she knows their blends better than I do...

    Leave a comment:


  • _moby_
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Originally posted by Wrecker link=1216451409/0#19 date=1217198287
    As a wide eyed newb to home espresso I find all of the above, and in particular what Pioneer Roaster has written, very interesting.

    Ive found trying to stick to a firm timed outcome extremely challenging.  Just as Im sure my dose will vary by maybe 0.5gm, it is pretty consistent as is my tamp.  What my experience has taught me to this point is that throughout the day the grind has to be tweaked.  But thats where it gets interesting in relation to PRs post above...

    Ive run shots say, early morning, using last nights grind setting.  It becomes clear that the flow is "tighter" than optimal and if I cut the double shot after 25 seconds Ill end up with only about 30 - 40 ml.  Sometimes Ive instead just watched what is coming out of the spout.  While it has crema and some striation Ive let it go resulting in a 60 ml double in maybe 45 seconds!    And its tasted magnificent!  :-/  When Ive cut it dutifully at the 25-30 second mark its tasted "hollow" and lacking.

    Again, stressing my inexperience, Ive found that the poor shots are usually the quick ones - two coarse, poor tamp or channeled.  Its probably wrong but because of this I tend to stray to a finer grind and allow it it take that little longer to produce my shot.  It seems to suit my taste buds  perfectly.  :-?
    What the flow looks like and then of course what it tastes like is much more important than the numbers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wrecker
    replied
    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Originally posted by jimmyb link=1216451409/20#20 date=1217200262
    Ive made a few coffees on a VBM the same as yours Wrecker and find a 35 sec shot is very nice to drink, comes back to the different machines and the fact that its good to learn the standard but then play around till you find what you like.
    Thanks Jimmyb, that actually helps. Im now 4 weeks into this journey and have found that for me and my machine longer is better. I have several regular "customers" who have all agreed. I also dont count from pulling the handle. I start the count from the moment the pressure ramps and the fluid begins to pour.

    Two things sent me down this path. I read a review somewhere about "the perfect shot" in which the author wrote about watching the pour and staying with it whilst there was crema and striation. The second was one night with guests arriving while I was "dialling in the grind" for the dinner party. I ran two "long" shots and declared that the grind was too fine. I set them aside while I made the last tweak to bring it towards the 25 second pour. My two early arrivals grabbed the "too long" ones and decided to sip them before I could toss em and declared them to be wonderful. I proudly produced my 25 second 60 ml perfecto and when they tried it they declared the rejects much smoother and more balanced. I took the punt based on that advice (I was afterall making coffee for my guests) and reverted to the finer grind and longer shot. All guests declared the coffees I served after dinner to be among the best theyd ever had and despite the caffeine all went for seconds. Ive stuck with tighter longer duration shots ever since...

    Leave a comment:

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