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DECAF - Mocha Java

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  • #16
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi Rose,

    A few things:

    1) Are you saying second crack came at 12:45 into the roast? If so that is probably too fast. I normally try to get FC around the 12-14 minute mark, and SC around 18-20. The Hottops heating system is quite efficient, you may need to back off the power by 20% or so.
    2) If my understanding in 1) is correct, youre probably finding FC and SC are running straight into each other which would make them indistinguishable. Normally they sound quite different - FC is a distinct crack while SC is quieter, almost like a click. An extreme analogy would be snapping pencils (FC) compared to snapping matchsticks (SC).
    3) How soon after roasting are you drinking it? Its good to try a roast each day after roasting just to see how it changes, but generally youd need to leave it rest at least three days.

    If you can confirm the above we may be able to give some recommendations. FWIW, Decaf MJ has been one of my staple beans for a few years now and Ive done plenty of successful Hottop B roasts with it.

    Greg

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

      Greg
      thx for your comments.  I forgot to mention it was about CS 10-11 with a couple of charcoal beans.  I had read the notes of others with roasting decaf and so attempted to slow down the profile. I will slow the next one down a little more.   I cant figure out how to attach the excel graph (even tho Ive saved it as a gif) - I keep getting an error when I post.  So below are my times, temps, and notes on the roast.  I figure I have to roast longer without getting them completely charcoaled, as the sour grassy taste must be that they are under-roasted, or indeed the beans are too old.

      I think you may be correct with the cracks rolling into one another

      Timer Temp Fan Heat Comments/Actions
      PH start 20
      18:00 75 0 100
      17:45 78
      17:30 82
      17:15 86
      17:00 90 1 100 added fan to slow roast
      16:45 95
      16:30 99
      16:15 104
      16:00 109
      15:45 115
      15:30 119
      15:15 124
      15:00 128 quiet popping
      14:45 133 more quiet popping
      14:30 137 "
      14:15 142 1 70 "
      14:00 147 "
      13:45 150 "
      13:30 154 "
      13:15 157
      13:00 160
      12:45 163 2 70
      12:30 166
      12:15 170
      12:00 172
      11:45 174
      11:30 176 Popping - Sounds like rolling 1st crack
      11:15 178
      11:00 180
      10:45 182
      10:30 184 3 70
      10:15 185
      10:00 187
      9:45 188
      9:30 189
      9:15 191
      9:00 192 4 40
      8:45 193
      8:30 194
      8:15 195
      8:00 196
      7:45 196
      7:30 197
      7:15 198
      7:00 198 1 pop
      6:45 199
      6:30 200
      6:15 200
      6:00 200
      5:45 201 1 Loud Crack - start of 2nd crack??? No idea
      5:30 202
      5:15 202 Eject


      Rose

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

        Hi Rose,

        Thanks for that, those figures are probably more useful than a graph anyway. From the outset I would reiterate that while your settings are what we recommend as a starting point, as we mention they may need to be revised to suit your unit and local power levels. I think this is a case in point.

        I think you have probably stopped the roast too early, and if you do the roast will be quite acidic. This may taste sour or grassy as youve described. For espresso you really need to get to at least the start of second crack, ideally into rolling second, and this should be quite obvious when it comes. There should be lots of cracks rather than just one or two, I would wait until you can hear numerous toothpicks snapping before ejecting the roast. The age of the beans could be an issue but not necessarily.

        The roast does look too quick, particularly through the early to mid stages of the roast. This is what my temps look like early on with your equivalent in brackets:

        3 - 112 (128)
        4 - 128 (147)
        5 - 142 (160)
        6 - 155 (172)
        7 - 165 (180)
        8 - 174 (187)
        9 - 181 (192)

        The last part of your roast looks OK where the temps are rising by a couple of degrees per minute but it just gets there too fast. I tried one roast where I kept it at 100% the whole time and there were cracks and pops rolling into each other and it was impossible to tell one from the other.

        As I mentioned you should initially aim for FC around the 12 minute mark and SC around the 18 minute mark. To achieve this Id recommend initially reducing the heater power to 70% two minutes into the roast and see how that goes. If necessary reduce the heater power around the 140 degree mark to 60% rather than 70%. This should slow things down somewhat which should allow the beans to absorb heat evenly and hopefully crack more around the same time. FC will normally come around the low 190s on the panel (in my unit anyway) so if you can aim to be in the mid 180s around the 10 minute mark youll probably be on the right track. Something else you can try is dropping the power to 40% when you take the fan to level 3 rather than level 4. This should add 2-3 minutes to the end of the roast and will mean the rise in temperature is slowing right down around FC which is about the time the roast normally speeds up (as the moisture content of the beans drops away and heat starts to quickly rise).

        I reckon if you can stretch it out to that sort of result you should get a much different tasting roast. If youre having trouble with the cracks it would be best to try with a bean like some Brazil Daterra Sweet, Ethiopian Limmu or some Mexican as weve found these all crack quite clearly (other beans do too Im sure but these we can definitely recommend).

        Hope this helps,
        Greg

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

          Many thx Greg,

          I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by. My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable. This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently. Ill give it another go this weekend.

          I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data. Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

          thankyou

          Regards Rose

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

            Originally posted by 636372636F6C65000 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
            Many thx Greg,

            I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by.  My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable.  This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently.  Ill give it another go this weekend.

            I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data.  Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

            thankyou

            Regards Rose
            Rose... I did mine the other day and took teh probe cord out the back near teh fan... Allows for no viable cuts to teh body.

            (Stripped mine and did a full clean while I was at it - worth while)

            I am off to Morton Island Wednesday... Back Sunday and then off to Melbourne for training ( I guess I will have to go Cold turkey down there [smiley=cry.gif]) on Monday...

            Will be back for the long weekend..

            I am Northside of Brisbane... Wooloowin... Have all the tools etc and more than happy to assist you and or do the modification for you...

            PM me if it is something you may be interested in.. CS people enjoy helping....

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

              Originally posted by 4848594844474E2B0 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
              Many thx Greg,

              I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by.  My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable.  This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently.  Ill give it another go this weekend.

              I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data.  Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

              thankyou

              Regards Rose
              The other warning sign that you probably under-roasted was your report of the colour being CS10-11. I would normally roast to around CS9-10 for espresso as a general rule, and decaf being a lot darker by nature of the decaf process most of mine would be CS11 minimum probably, if not CS12. The darkness doesnt mean its over-roasted, thats why I find the ability to easily hear the cracks to be much more useful than the colour of the beans.

              It is a bit of a learning curve as with anything, I know what thats all about. Unfortunately I had no-one to hold my hand when I started off with my B, but plenty of mistakes have helped work out what works best for me. How much difference does a 10% reduction in power make to the heating capacity of the unit? How early do I drop the heater power if I want it to slow down by this point? All these things take time to learn; hopefully the quick start guide you got with the roaster will get you off on the right foot but ultimately you need to learn the parameters of your particular machine.

              We can actually do the thermocouple installation as an aftermarket thing. We dont advertise that due to the expense of sending the roaster back to us to have it fitted but if you really wanted to its no problem for us to do the installation and keep your warranty intact. Weve already had one customer take this option. Otherwise for presumably the same functionality (but a voided warranty), AMs offer is quite generous so give that some consideration too. The bean mass temperature really helps especially when youre experimenting with different profiles or bean volumes.

              Greg

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

                Originally posted by 0411060413160F0F0E020D630 link=1235564749/20#20 date=1243313246
                Originally posted by 4848594844474E2B0 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
                Many thx Greg,

                I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by.  My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable.  This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently.  Ill give it another go this weekend.

                I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data.  Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

                thankyou

                Regards Rose
                The other warning sign that you probably under-roasted was your report of the colour being CS10-11. I would normally roast to around CS9-10 for espresso as a general rule, and decaf being a lot darker by nature of the decaf process most of mine would be CS11 minimum probably, if not CS12. The darkness doesnt mean its over-roasted, thats why I find the ability to easily hear the cracks to be much more useful than the colour of the beans.

                It is a bit of a learning curve as with anything, I know what thats all about. Unfortunately I had no-one to hold my hand when I started off with my B, but plenty of mistakes have helped work out what works best for me. How much difference does a 10% reduction in power make to the heating capacity of the unit? How early do I drop the heater power if I want it to slow down by this point? All these things take time to learn; hopefully the quick start guide you got with the roaster will get you off on the right foot but ultimately you need to learn the parameters of your particular machine.

                We can actually do the thermocouple installation as an aftermarket thing. We dont advertise that due to the expense of sending the roaster back to us to have it fitted but if you really wanted to its no problem for us to do the installation and keep your warranty intact. Weve already had one customer take this option. Otherwise for presumably the same functionality (but a voided warranty), AMs offer is quite generous so give that some consideration too. The bean mass temperature really helps especially when youre experimenting with different profiles or bean volumes.

                Greg
                Thanks Greg... It may sound lame, but as a Fitter & Turner, with high level quals in Electronics / Communications, IT and being a BioMed for more years that I care to remember (Australasia/ South Pacific)... As well as a few years of over all maintenance and Mr fixit -

                Trust me.... [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif]

                I only offer where I have had teh experience (usually my stuff to start with) or it is a last ditched effort on something that is already on the way to the dump.. Thus a no loose situation. Even if there is no fix, the experience and things you learn, are often invaluable..

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

                  WOO HOO, thankyou Greg.

                  Did another roast of this bean, and followed Gregs. My roast still galloped away at the start, but I managed to slow it down. Then I slowed it a little too, much but then got it back on course.

                  This time I could clearly hear both 1st & 2nd crack

                  18min 15secs
                  FInal temp 213
                  CS11-12
                  even colour, no burnt beans, smelled great
                  So now Im thinking I probably need to slow all my roasts down at the start & middle, as I have had a lot of trouble hearing 1st & 2nd crack until now.

                  I tasted last weeks effort today (7 days post roast) it was better but still sour & grassy. so into the garden for those pretty little darlings.

                  once again thankyou to everyones contributions, theyve really helped.

                  Rose

                  Comment

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