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  • ccrcole
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    WOO HOO, thankyou Greg.

    Did another roast of this bean, and followed Gregs. My roast still galloped away at the start, but I managed to slow it down. Then I slowed it a little too, much but then got it back on course.

    This time I could clearly hear both 1st & 2nd crack

    18min 15secs
    FInal temp 213
    CS11-12
    even colour, no burnt beans, smelled great
    So now Im thinking I probably need to slow all my roasts down at the start & middle, as I have had a lot of trouble hearing 1st & 2nd crack until now.

    I tasted last weeks effort today (7 days post roast) it was better but still sour & grassy. so into the garden for those pretty little darlings.

    once again thankyou to everyones contributions, theyve really helped.

    Rose

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Originally posted by 0411060413160F0F0E020D630 link=1235564749/20#20 date=1243313246
    Originally posted by 4848594844474E2B0 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by.  My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable.  This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently.  Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data.  Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose
    The other warning sign that you probably under-roasted was your report of the colour being CS10-11. I would normally roast to around CS9-10 for espresso as a general rule, and decaf being a lot darker by nature of the decaf process most of mine would be CS11 minimum probably, if not CS12. The darkness doesnt mean its over-roasted, thats why I find the ability to easily hear the cracks to be much more useful than the colour of the beans.

    It is a bit of a learning curve as with anything, I know what thats all about. Unfortunately I had no-one to hold my hand when I started off with my B, but plenty of mistakes have helped work out what works best for me. How much difference does a 10% reduction in power make to the heating capacity of the unit? How early do I drop the heater power if I want it to slow down by this point? All these things take time to learn; hopefully the quick start guide you got with the roaster will get you off on the right foot but ultimately you need to learn the parameters of your particular machine.

    We can actually do the thermocouple installation as an aftermarket thing. We dont advertise that due to the expense of sending the roaster back to us to have it fitted but if you really wanted to its no problem for us to do the installation and keep your warranty intact. Weve already had one customer take this option. Otherwise for presumably the same functionality (but a voided warranty), AMs offer is quite generous so give that some consideration too. The bean mass temperature really helps especially when youre experimenting with different profiles or bean volumes.

    Greg
    Thanks Greg... It may sound lame, but as a Fitter & Turner, with high level quals in Electronics / Communications, IT and being a BioMed for more years that I care to remember (Australasia/ South Pacific)... As well as a few years of over all maintenance and Mr fixit -

    Trust me.... [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif]

    I only offer where I have had teh experience (usually my stuff to start with) or it is a last ditched effort on something that is already on the way to the dump.. Thus a no loose situation. Even if there is no fix, the experience and things you learn, are often invaluable..

    Leave a comment:


  • gregpullman
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Originally posted by 4848594844474E2B0 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by.  My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable.  This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently.  Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data.  Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose
    The other warning sign that you probably under-roasted was your report of the colour being CS10-11. I would normally roast to around CS9-10 for espresso as a general rule, and decaf being a lot darker by nature of the decaf process most of mine would be CS11 minimum probably, if not CS12. The darkness doesnt mean its over-roasted, thats why I find the ability to easily hear the cracks to be much more useful than the colour of the beans.

    It is a bit of a learning curve as with anything, I know what thats all about. Unfortunately I had no-one to hold my hand when I started off with my B, but plenty of mistakes have helped work out what works best for me. How much difference does a 10% reduction in power make to the heating capacity of the unit? How early do I drop the heater power if I want it to slow down by this point? All these things take time to learn; hopefully the quick start guide you got with the roaster will get you off on the right foot but ultimately you need to learn the parameters of your particular machine.

    We can actually do the thermocouple installation as an aftermarket thing. We dont advertise that due to the expense of sending the roaster back to us to have it fitted but if you really wanted to its no problem for us to do the installation and keep your warranty intact. Weve already had one customer take this option. Otherwise for presumably the same functionality (but a voided warranty), AMs offer is quite generous so give that some consideration too. The bean mass temperature really helps especially when youre experimenting with different profiles or bean volumes.

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Originally posted by 636372636F6C65000 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by.  My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable.  This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently.  Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data.  Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose
    Rose... I did mine the other day and took teh probe cord out the back near teh fan... Allows for no viable cuts to teh body.

    (Stripped mine and did a full clean while I was at it - worth while)

    I am off to Morton Island Wednesday... Back Sunday and then off to Melbourne for training ( I guess I will have to go Cold turkey down there [smiley=cry.gif]) on Monday...

    Will be back for the long weekend..

    I am Northside of Brisbane... Wooloowin... Have all the tools etc and more than happy to assist you and or do the modification for you...

    PM me if it is something you may be interested in.. CS people enjoy helping....

    Leave a comment:


  • ccrcole
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by. My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable. This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently. Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data. Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose

    Leave a comment:


  • gregpullman
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi Rose,

    Thanks for that, those figures are probably more useful than a graph anyway. From the outset I would reiterate that while your settings are what we recommend as a starting point, as we mention they may need to be revised to suit your unit and local power levels. I think this is a case in point.

    I think you have probably stopped the roast too early, and if you do the roast will be quite acidic. This may taste sour or grassy as youve described. For espresso you really need to get to at least the start of second crack, ideally into rolling second, and this should be quite obvious when it comes. There should be lots of cracks rather than just one or two, I would wait until you can hear numerous toothpicks snapping before ejecting the roast. The age of the beans could be an issue but not necessarily.

    The roast does look too quick, particularly through the early to mid stages of the roast. This is what my temps look like early on with your equivalent in brackets:

    3 - 112 (128)
    4 - 128 (147)
    5 - 142 (160)
    6 - 155 (172)
    7 - 165 (180)
    8 - 174 (187)
    9 - 181 (192)

    The last part of your roast looks OK where the temps are rising by a couple of degrees per minute but it just gets there too fast. I tried one roast where I kept it at 100% the whole time and there were cracks and pops rolling into each other and it was impossible to tell one from the other.

    As I mentioned you should initially aim for FC around the 12 minute mark and SC around the 18 minute mark. To achieve this Id recommend initially reducing the heater power to 70% two minutes into the roast and see how that goes. If necessary reduce the heater power around the 140 degree mark to 60% rather than 70%. This should slow things down somewhat which should allow the beans to absorb heat evenly and hopefully crack more around the same time. FC will normally come around the low 190s on the panel (in my unit anyway) so if you can aim to be in the mid 180s around the 10 minute mark youll probably be on the right track. Something else you can try is dropping the power to 40% when you take the fan to level 3 rather than level 4. This should add 2-3 minutes to the end of the roast and will mean the rise in temperature is slowing right down around FC which is about the time the roast normally speeds up (as the moisture content of the beans drops away and heat starts to quickly rise).

    I reckon if you can stretch it out to that sort of result you should get a much different tasting roast. If youre having trouble with the cracks it would be best to try with a bean like some Brazil Daterra Sweet, Ethiopian Limmu or some Mexican as weve found these all crack quite clearly (other beans do too Im sure but these we can definitely recommend).

    Hope this helps,
    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • ccrcole
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Greg
    thx for your comments.  I forgot to mention it was about CS 10-11 with a couple of charcoal beans.  I had read the notes of others with roasting decaf and so attempted to slow down the profile. I will slow the next one down a little more.   I cant figure out how to attach the excel graph (even tho Ive saved it as a gif) - I keep getting an error when I post.  So below are my times, temps, and notes on the roast.  I figure I have to roast longer without getting them completely charcoaled, as the sour grassy taste must be that they are under-roasted, or indeed the beans are too old.

    I think you may be correct with the cracks rolling into one another

    Timer Temp Fan Heat Comments/Actions
    PH start 20
    18:00 75 0 100
    17:45 78
    17:30 82
    17:15 86
    17:00 90 1 100 added fan to slow roast
    16:45 95
    16:30 99
    16:15 104
    16:00 109
    15:45 115
    15:30 119
    15:15 124
    15:00 128 quiet popping
    14:45 133 more quiet popping
    14:30 137 "
    14:15 142 1 70 "
    14:00 147 "
    13:45 150 "
    13:30 154 "
    13:15 157
    13:00 160
    12:45 163 2 70
    12:30 166
    12:15 170
    12:00 172
    11:45 174
    11:30 176 Popping - Sounds like rolling 1st crack
    11:15 178
    11:00 180
    10:45 182
    10:30 184 3 70
    10:15 185
    10:00 187
    9:45 188
    9:30 189
    9:15 191
    9:00 192 4 40
    8:45 193
    8:30 194
    8:15 195
    8:00 196
    7:45 196
    7:30 197
    7:15 198
    7:00 198 1 pop
    6:45 199
    6:30 200
    6:15 200
    6:00 200
    5:45 201 1 Loud Crack - start of 2nd crack??? No idea
    5:30 202
    5:15 202 Eject


    Rose

    Leave a comment:


  • gregpullman
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi Rose,

    A few things:

    1) Are you saying second crack came at 12:45 into the roast? If so that is probably too fast. I normally try to get FC around the 12-14 minute mark, and SC around 18-20. The Hottops heating system is quite efficient, you may need to back off the power by 20% or so.
    2) If my understanding in 1) is correct, youre probably finding FC and SC are running straight into each other which would make them indistinguishable. Normally they sound quite different - FC is a distinct crack while SC is quieter, almost like a click. An extreme analogy would be snapping pencils (FC) compared to snapping matchsticks (SC).
    3) How soon after roasting are you drinking it? Its good to try a roast each day after roasting just to see how it changes, but generally youd need to leave it rest at least three days.

    If you can confirm the above we may be able to give some recommendations. FWIW, Decaf MJ has been one of my staple beans for a few years now and Ive done plenty of successful Hottop B roasts with it.

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • ccrcole
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi
    I roasted some Mocha Java Decaf (bought Oct 2007 CoffeeSnobs).
    Hottop B: 12mins 45 secs; final temp 202 degrees; pulled just on 2nd crack;

    it tastes sour & grassy, just after roasting. is it too old? or should i just try another profile?

    Ive only done 10 roasts in my Hottop B so im still learning, and this is my first decaf. I still struggle to recognize 1st & 2nd crack a lot.

    I have just bought the Decaf WOW, so Ill probably give that a go next weekend.

    Rose

    Leave a comment:


  • bjeck14
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Originally posted by 2A0D17060F0F0A070613170B630 link=1235564749/12#12 date=1242266478
    Re-reading previous posts and seeing the time from first snap to batch pull, I suspect that my first crack was actually at 12:00 and sputtered its way through into second with no gap.
    Thats exactly what happened to me this morning. I thought it might have just been the temp of the popper, but maybe not!
    Thanks for the incredible detail intelli!

    Leave a comment:


  • Intellidepth
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Re-reading previous posts and seeing the time from first snap to batch pull, I suspect that my first crack was actually at 12:00 and sputtered its way through into second with no gap.

    Leave a comment:


  • Intellidepth
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Ive totally hit the awesome roast point with these in my Coretto. Beware, lots of info to come.

    It took three roast attempts, going darker every time to reach the sweet spot. It does roast very differently to most beans, but Ill give you what I can.

    Roasted to CS12, batch purchased from BeanBay a few months ago. Not oily after roasting to this level (very unusual at CS12). Dont be afraid of taking this bean to CS12.

    Load: 400g green, 1 1/2 lb Remington breadmaker.
    Fan: slow fan across top of Coretto pointed at Ozito heat gun.
    Slow knead: 300*C heat gun, 6 minutes, followed by...
    Fast knead: 500*C heat gun, pulled at 16:20 minutes total.
    Days temp: 23*C. Breeze.
    First crack: no idea.
    Second crack: first snap at 12:00, next at 12:30, definite by 14:00 slow rolling, pulled at 16:20 rolling smokey.
    Roast Level: CS12 looks nearly black in sunlight, dark dark brown inside house.
    Exit load weight at CS12: 340g.
    Chaff: none.
    Roasted colour: even tone 90% dark, 10% slightly lighter.
    Roasted smell: well-done popcorn, not nutty, reminds me of Italian roasters I used to visit in the 80s. Dark, spicey, hint of vegemite  .
    Roasted bean texture: all easy to snap (if underdone, really hard to snap decaf, need a hammer!)
    Espresso shot straight after roasting: aroma; freshly cracked eucalyptus leaf. flavour; typical coffee flavour, good, mid-full bodied, good crema for decaf.
    Milk shot straight after roasting: fabulous. Aroma; freshly cracked eucalyptus leaf, full taste at 25ml shot in long black cups ~25secs.
    Grind: 5-7 half turns tighter on Macap M4 than non-decaf beans.
    Shots after a few days rest: continues to be awesome and flavour developing. Crema good.

    Notes from previous under-done roasts...
    CS11: colour 2-tone, but 70% darker, 30% lighter, variegated within each bean. Strong nice smell when dark bean snapped, not burned still, easy to snap, some crema on espresso shot, but still sour at CS11 particularly evident in milk. Exit load weight 350g.
    CS9-10: roasted bean smell mild, not distinctive, bean texture "sproingy" really hard to cut, couldnt snap, but brown inside all the way through, expresso practically no crema, bread flavour, sour, weak, very light when ground, puck ultra-absorbent, could not updose. Exit load weight 365g.

    Dont say I didnt warn you about TMI! :

    Leave a comment:


  • TC
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Originally posted by 60646E663C39676C650D0 link=1235564749/9#9 date=1241520330
    Hi picked up my first lot of Decaf M.J on the weekend .
    Regarding puting non decaf beans in as a Indicator - Reference
    Has anyone found the closest beans to use for a referance.
    Obviously some will be closer to others.
    Will do a bit off exprimenting myself also , would be interesting to find other peoples results.
    thanks Mick
    Hi Mick,

    The MJ is easy to roast. Do as you do, but close your eyes and ignore colour. Dump the beans immediately at the first beans enter second crack...

    Good luck!

    2mcm

    Leave a comment:


  • mick14jah
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi picked up my first lot of Decaf M.J on the weekend .
    Regarding puting non decaf beans in as a Indicator - Reference
    Has anyone found the closest beans to use for a referance.
    Obviously some will be closer to others.
    Will do a bit off exprimenting myself also , would be interesting to find other peoples results.
    thanks Mick

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy
    replied
    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Originally posted by 220F0A1017020A1152630 link=1235564749/7#7 date=1235648025
    I added some non-decaf beans like Andy suggested and about 11:30 mins in it started FC.
    It sounds like this might be a good tip for others trying to find a decaf indicator.... glad it worked!

    You are on track now, too early, a little too late (which will be more drinkable than the too early) and next time you will have a better feel for where you are aiming for.

    Keep plenty of notes and you will be fine!

    Leave a comment:

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