Imagine the booring subdued taste profile of a steak evenly cooked all the way through ?
This is not necessarily an improvement, but another technique to be honed and added to the arsenal.
( Lets hope they don't optimise the designs for typical commercial rubbish beans as the technique could have potential for better variation and control of roast parameters for us Coffeesnobs).
100% sure you already know that.
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Why are my Hottop roasts not degassing ???
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You’re right, but it is being explored and researched, just not in relation to the domestic or home roaster market. That’s probably just because it is comparatively tiny and all the money is in the commercial/industrial market. The commercial roasters that I can think of that are leading the way are Loring, Stronghold, Kaleido and Bellwether. There’s probably more but they’re the ones that come to mind. There’s some interesting research out there that compared roast results from a roaster with predominantly radiant heat to that of a more traditional drum roaster. It was very interesting. It was done in Japan, but there’s an English report so I’ll see if I can find it.Originally posted by snowytec View PostSomething IS going on with these differing roast techniques that is not being explored yet, (and it will be complicated).
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Gaby,
I have a Hottop.
First crack on mine occurs at 171C (bean Temp). so this is really 196C for Arabica i.e. my sensor is reading 25C low.
I was concerned enough with this at the beginning to contact Hottop Taiwan with my complete roast curves and they said my figures where completely normal for the Australian models.
Second Crack is at 195C (bean Temp) on the same machine.
So you have to recalibrate others roast curves to your machine, but don't expect the other machines curves to be calibrated.
(it's impossible to get meaningful data unless people include their own machines FC temperature as a reference - and they don't).
I'm with you that their should be a better way, but roasting is presently an art compensating for loose science.
Just to confuse this issue further.
I started roasting with a copper solid drum gas heated baby roaster no fan or real air movement in the roast chamber.
I have had the best roasts i've ever experienced out of it.
But the really weird thing is that Post Roast Development Time is 1-2 days not typically 7-8 days as with the Hottop, (or longer with Yemen).
Something IS going on with these differing roast techniques that is not being explored yet, (and it will be complicated).
Present roasters available all have their own voice, (like musical instruments) you have to be prepared to adapt technique to each roaster.
Nice journey.
Snowytec.
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I roast with a Kaffelogic Nano 7 and found this as well. The 250g Campos beans I used to buy are pressurised due to de-gassing, but I've never observed any kind of meaningful de-gassing from my beans. I figured it was due to the difference in roasting with a commercial roaster vs home roaster.
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Thank you very much Andy for your time and your very detailed response, and thank you everyone for your feedback.
I fully agree, and I know, that we all have to cut our own path, and yet I find myself hungry and eager to compare notes and to learn from others how to continue to improve my game, and the taste in my cup. ?
I guess part of my challenge is the fact that I am a chemical engineer by education and my approach to everything is very specific and very measured (it drives my wife mad...) so, by nature, I find myself searching for "certainty" where ever possible, hence the nature of my questions above.
I actually record, measure and analyse every roast I do but I now feel I have hit the ceiling of my roasting skill level and need to somehow learn from those more skilled than myself.
From the responses I received here, I feel I am probably under developing my roasts in my eagerness to shorten roast times to capture the brighter, more floral/ fruity notes that I love and look for in my roasts, but that I rarely get if I am honest. ?
Perhaps I should post a separate thread on the what are the best strategies one should adopt to avoid under development while also not destroying those brighter more floral/fruity notes.
For example, which of the following would be more effective in overcoming under development :-
1) Lengthen the drying phase of the roast
2) Lengthen the Mallard Reaction phase of the roast
3) Lengthen the time between FC and end of roast
4) Roast at a lower heat setting all together to allow the bean to roast more slowly and more fully
5) Should one aim for higher or lower end of roast temperature
6) Should one preheat the roaster to a higher or lower temperature before dropping the green beans to start the roast
7) Adopt a "Soak" stage at the start of the roast to allow the beans to warm up gently for a little while before hitting them with full heat
8) And finally, how does one ensure proper development while also not destroying those brighter floral notes
I am hoping to learn the tricks to better roasting before I develop high blood pressure and can't drink enough coffee in a day to experiment and find out for myself. ?
Thanks again Andy, and everyone, for your helpful and valued feedback.
Kind regards....Gaby
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Having a crack at the initial question...
CoffeeSnobs valve bags are the best available storage for coffee. They are 3 layers to provide different functions.- inside is PET, food safe for food contact (eg: coke bottles).
- middle layer is aluminium foil, a thin but solid barrier from air in both directions
- Outside is PP, strong and flexible to hold it all together.
- The valve is one-way, to let gasses out and not in.
If you heat sealed, the bags would expand up to the pressure release value of the valve and if you taped over the valve they would go round like a footy.
At the Snobbery, we'll occasionally get orders of 2.5kg ground coffee (a pet hate of mine) and the ground coffee can block the valve. A Sunday roast, grind, seal will be rolling around on the packing table Monday morning and bloody hard to get into a satchel for freight. It takes a fair amount of weight (near uncomfortable amount) on the bag to release the first of the gasses but once started we can reduce the bag size to small enough to pack.
If you want to experiment - seal one of the Snobs bags with some brown paper over the end and press with a hot iron (try not to heat the zip seal though), put a bit of tape over the holes in the valve and it should expand in the first couple of days.
Spot-on Mal.Originally posted by Dimal View PostI wouldn't worry about it too much, so long as the end result in the cup is good...
It's an academic issue otherwise.
Don't get hung-up if your coffee is degassing instead get hung-up on the taste of it compared to your previous roasts of the same bean.
Keep LOTS OF NOTES to improve your outcome.
Taste is the best way to determine if something is under developed...
Does it taste like hay or peas or sour? - prob under developed, adjust your roasting to suit, slow it down, lengthen it out or finish later.
Meaningful comparison? Won't be done. You can get rough idea by looking at the roast curve but copying it, even on the same roaster can yield different results with data not shown (like ambient room temperature and amount of induced air). ie: on your Hottop the cleanliness of your filter will cause the same profile to give different results.One challenge has always been how to meaningfully compare roast data from different machines with different probe placements and measurement characteristics.
Meaningful = First Crack 196C
First Crack (not the TLA of FC = Football Club) is at 196C on an Arabica beans at sea level (all of Australia is at sea level really). Your probe placement, accuracy, lag will vary between setups so the only meaningful point in a roast is where first crack happened.
Each users setup will know where their own first crack happens and they can extrapolate roughly from there but remember, not all probes are accurate in the 200C range and while your machine shows 182C first crack that 6C error might be 2C or 20C at an indicated 200C.
It is REALLY IMPORTANT to cut your own path, keep your own records and temperatures (which are accurate to you) as nothing really compares to anyone else's environment.
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For a larger scale commercial roaster I'd be interested to know how long the roasting process goes for compared to say a Behmor. Could it have something to do with longer roasts drying the beans out and drier beans not outgassing as much? I have recently noticed that the beans I roasted in my Behmor needed a measurably finer grind than some Lavazza Gran Crema beans I was given to try out. I didn't notice my own roast swelling the bean bags either. At any rate what I just said there goes against the grain of the adage "older beans need a finer grind". It might be a mistake on my part to try and find a relationship between possibly unrelated things though - eg, outgassing, freshness, moisture content and grind size....Last edited by YeastNCaffeine; 21 September 2020, 12:49 PM.
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God bless you Mal and thanks for your feedback. I guess the point that LeroyC raised is an important question for me; are my roasts under developed??
I have often wondered about this myself and would love to exchange notes with some here on how to meaningfully compare how I am roasting certain beans with how they should be roasted for adequate development.
One challenge has always been how to meaningfully compare roast data from different machines with different probe placements and measurement characteristics.
I have been thinking about this and one way around it, I believe, would be to use the FC temperature as a point of reference to standardise around since FC happens more or less around the same point/temp for most beans and irrespective of machine used. (more or less)
FOR EXAMPLE:-
Say FC for most beans happens between, say, 180 to 182 degC. on a specific roaster
Knowing this we can express the temp we preheat the roaster before dropping the beans in for a roast relative to this typical FC temp. Eg we could then say we preheat the roaster to the same temp as FC or, 10 degC less or more than the FC temp etc etc before dropping the beans to start a roast
Also we can express the final temp of the roast in the same way, EG 10 degC or 15degC above the FC temp etc etc.
This, together with the total time of the roast, and the development time from the point of FC to end of roast, should help us compare roasts between each other and exchange meaningful notes on how to get the most from certain beans etc.
I digress perhaps but I am very thirsty for meaningful tips on how to get the best from certain beans in terms of what temp I should preheat the roaster to before dropping the beans in; what temp I should aim to end the roast at; what development time ratio I should aim at etc etc.
I would love to be able to compare notes and learn from the more experienced roasters here, especially Andy of course..
Thanks again Mal and everyone for your valued feedback..
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I wouldn't worry about it too much, so long as the end result in the cup is good...
It's an academic issue otherwise.
Mal.
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Hey Gabster, I roast in a Behmor but experience the same; my CS bags don't balloon up, which as mentioned before hopefully means they're working. And I make sure they are shut tight at the ziplock. But I have experienced what you say, I've bought roasted beans and the bag has been a balloon that you can squeeze out the gases from. I do also wonder what goes on here...
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It’s probably a combination of two things: 1. The CS ziplock bags you’re using are actually allowing for a little bit of transfer of trapped gases. 2. The coffee you roast at home is less developed so degasses slower.
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You are right Ted, the chemical reactions do produce CO2 but I was just at a loss as to why I am not seeing more degassing and started wondering if the heating method used was also a contributing factor. Some of the Campos coffee bags I have bought are like balloons and I never get anywhere near that level of degassing so I was wondering, being a curious kind a guy.
Thanks for your feedback though and happy to see another Hottop roaster here..
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Hmmmm, I didn't know the heating is indirect, in which case you are spot on, the environment in the roasting chamber would be normal atmosphere and I am back to square one.

I'll try the zip bags with no one way valve and see if I spot a difference.
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