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Baked Beans - Not What You Think

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  • Baked Beans - Not What You Think

    So i've scoured the internet and youtube for info on what a baked defect in coffee actually is, what causes it and what it tastes like.

    Im quite disappointed in what I found.

    The main thing is that a baked defect is not objective like scorching, tipping, burning or other obvious defects. It is also not entirely subjective like over development or under development which is more of a preference. Its somewhere in the disgusting grey middle area. The best I could find is that "People won't like the coffee" but also, we highly suspect it is caused by a stall in the temperature, sometimes....

    'Baked' is also a spectrum, meaning most coffee might be a little baked, some are not baked at all, some are seriously baked.

    What causes a Coffee profile to 'bake' the bean:
    • Baking occurs when temperature stays stable for too long
    • A way to detect this is if the rate of rise rapidly crashes (according to Scotty)
    • Ideally, you want a consistently declining ROR until you end the roast
    • A decline in ROR can occur for many reasons
      • Some related to the beans response and thermodynamics
      • Some related to the roast equipment i.e. over reacting to change, not reacting fast enough to change and the like
    • The outside and inside of the bean is cooked too evenly (I imagine a 2 steaks, one nice and caramelised outside with a pink juicy inside and the other baked in an oven to be the same color entirely throughout)
    What does a Coffee that is 'baked' taste like:
    • Bad
    • Bread
    • Oats
    • Boring
    • Bland
    • It is surprisingly more common than many think (apparently)
    I am having trouble differentiating between beans that are poor quality greens, badly roasted, badly brewed (although less so and I do try and cup as much as I can), degassing and actually baked.


    I am toying with the idea of explicitly baking some beans so that I can cup them against the same bean without the baked defect using the KL Nano.

    What has your experience been with regards to the 'Bake' defect?
    How bad is it, how do you avoid it, what are your tasting hints?
    How do you differentiate between 'baked' and other dimensions/defects easily?

    Some resources for those interested:

  • #2
    Interesting stuff and worth considering...

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #3
      Very interesting thanks yochiya will follow future posts with interest. So if a bean is "baked", it sounds like it doesn't matter what you do with it, it's not going to be full bodied or flavoursome?

      Also interesting that coffee has been around for thousands of years (espresso maybe 70 years?) And yet very little is well defined e.g. baked. SCA seem to be on a mission to change that I guess and so to people like Scott Rao.

      Comment


      • yochiya
        yochiya commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes I think you might be able to get body but the flavour will lose its nuance or simply taste really flat and boring. I have notices the bread / oat reference before but never really made the connection.

        Totally agree, its worth considering that the internet only really became widely used over the last 20 years (I think 1992 was the first website from memory). Arguably its the greatest feat and enabler of collaboration that ever existed. I reckon this has enabled the like of SCA and Scott to consumme and disseminate more information more easily than ever before.

        Looking forward to what the next 20 years hold in coffee to be honest. My gut-feel is most of it would be in farming and processing.

      • GrahamK
        GrahamK commented
        Editing a comment
        While "Espresso Coffee The Science of Quality" by Illy & Viani does not specifically mention what we consider "baked" there is a lot of scientific evidence and explanation (much of which is beyond me), that could no doubt explain what is generally considered as baked in terms of explaining the variety of chemical changes and how they affect aroma compounds. Edition 2 was published in 2005, so not out of date. So "very little is well defined" is not exactly true.

    • #4
      Originally posted by yochiya View Post
      [*]A decline in ROR can occur for many reasons[LIST][*]Some related to the beans response and thermodynamics
      Take any explanation that involves thermodynamics with a very large grain of salt. 90% of what is written about coffee thermodynamics is just plain wrong.


      Originally posted by yochiya View Post
      What has your experience been with regards to the 'Bake' defect?
      I got a lot of "baked" defect early on and still get the odd roast showing a hint of it.

      For the early ones I suspect it had something to do with inadequate air flow rates. I have a theory that "baked" defect is actually stewed defect and occurs as a consequence of changes to the rate of moisture loss.

      As regards the correlation between stalling and "baked" defect, always remember correlation is not causation. It appears to be equally possible that both are symptoms and something else is the cause. That comment applies equally to my theory above.

      Comment


      • yochiya
        yochiya commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks for sharing,

        This theory is consistent with that of a few of the KaffeLogic roasting community members. FWIW, the latest brewers cup winner in Milan, Matt Winton, roasted his coffee on the KL, rumor has it they modified the KL for greater airflow. They have also confirmed that the will be sharing the profile and learnings with the community. Im looking forward to learning from it and confirming the airflow theory.

        I need to process the moisture loss to heat gain drop idea. I like the idea. I might test 2 roasts, one with plenty airflow and another using my standard airflow profile.

        Correlation != Causation, great point. I have heard may roasters repeat this especially if the ROR decline occurs closer to the end of the roast. definitely worth experimenting and cupping to validate.

      • Dimal
        Dimal commented
        Editing a comment
        learnings
        That would be "lessons" unless you are referring to whispers from the great beyond...

    • #5
      I've tried few KL profiles and, for some reason, all of them "baked beans" and I'm not sure why. Have you found one that has constantly declining RoR and doesn't bake the beans? and beans you used with that profile?

      Comment


      • yochiya
        yochiya commented
        Editing a comment
        I am still experimenting, suffice to say, i've had my fair share of bad tasting coffee from the KL... I have however had solid results with Raost v4 and D-roast profiles. Both of which implement a constantly declining ROR and higher speed fan profile. I've also had good results from some of the RTD profiles but only with specific beans.

        I can confirm but from memory:
        Sidamo Ardi, Roast v4 @ RL 1.5
        Sidamo Ardi, D-Roast @ RL 3
        Guji Haro L, Roast v4 @ RL 1.7

        Im quietly confident the KL is capable, it did after all just win the brewers cup. I have also roasted my fair share using the Hive roaster (seriously cool) and had some good and bad beans from it as well. Finding the same quality green bean as your favourite local roaster is actually quite hard I find. Many of them purchase specialty microlots in large quantities to get prices low.

    • #6
      When most people on the interwebbies refer to baked they typically mean it wasn't bright, acidic or sour enough to make your jowls hurt.

      It's all about what you are targeting in a cup and part of the roasters skill is to output something the consumers of that roast will like.

      If you are roasting for your own purpose then there is no reason not to roast what YOU prefer. When roasting for others you need to hit an average of tastes or just produce something and tell people they are morons if they don't like it. The later has worked well for many commercial roasters in Australia over the years.

      I notice that your range of references were all from the same continent and half are people selling books who need something to talk about. A little cynical but there is a pattern of the same regurgitated circles in anything as fluffy as baked. You really need to try the coffee they think "rocks" before determining how good a source they are.

      So if a bean is "baked", it sounds like it doesn't matter what you do with it, it's not going to be full bodied or flavoursome?
      It's MORE likely to have more body than the same bean in lighter or faster roasts, "flavour" might me more muted, fruits and acidity lessened but body should be better. If you are trying to produce maximum body in the roast you'll struggle in a light, fast, bright roast.

      Home roasters should roast a bean through a few different roast depths, profiles, speeds to determine what characteristic they want to accentuate in that bean to suit the brew method they want to use.

      Deep, earthy, chocolatey and fat bodied is targeted in most espresso but you can also have a "valid" bright, fruity, acidic, clean finishing, low bodied espresso. Neither is wrong, they are very different results in the cup though and if your only preference is bright then everything else is "baked".

      For filter (pour-over, plunger etc) typically the brighter and fruitier coffees are preferred and that means a faster roast and lower temperature but get it wrong and the tasting notes will be "lemon peas".

      As always, your very best reference should be your own taste and your detailed roasting notes to repeat the process.

      Comment


      • yochiya
        yochiya commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks for sharing this Andy. I sometimes wish I could clone myself in order to cup more in the persuit of learning more and gaining more tasting experience.

        In the absence of a cloning machine, I try and leverage whatever information I can access! I'm working on finding other references, the best I've found is this forum, some podcasts and chatting to my favourite local roasters.

        To confirm my understanding of your response. Baked is more subjective than objective and very much related to a consumer's preference.

        The idea of a baked roast defect is less a result of ROR crashes or stalling and more related to over or under development and roast level based on the drinkers preference.

        Thanks again for chiming in.

      • Lyrebird
        Lyrebird commented
        Editing a comment
        So Andy, in your opinion what is the difference between "baked" and "over roasted"?

    • #7
      Baked is a pretty loaded word with many different interpretations. If i remember correctly Rob Hoos lays out all the different ways to bake quite well in the Loring roast defect tutorial.

      Personally through regular weekly or more blind cupping over last couple of years i have found baked defect has nothing to do with length of roast or what end roast colour (depth) one prefers.

      Most attributes inherent to the green selection show well through a range of roast depths if the roast is on point. Intentionally baking something to try and shoe horn it into a customer preference is a bit pointless.

      Really baked roast has a stink about it that hangs around in aroma, bags, persistent aftertaste, Ive done it 1000s of times....ive bought loads of really baked commercial roasts that smell pretty bad.

      The worst for me is airflow that is too high where by temperatures rise, beans crack and turn brown but a large portion of the "bake" say from yellow onwards is spent with a falling roasting Environment Temp and / or it was never hot enough in the first place.

      I roasted 1000s on the KL and maybe hit a handful of roasts that were not baked. I came to the conclusion that as is, its window for a good roast is very small / a bit of one trick pony, all the altitude profiles are marketing BS.
      Will be interesting to read what the modifications were to win the brewers cup, however.

      Declining ROR on its own is no guarantee of no bake. Speaking from drum roaster perspective you can over manipulate gas to get a good looking line on the screen and end up with undrinkable, severely under developed and baked coffee that stinks like burnt boiled vegetables (onions, broccoli, beans) rolled in dirt.

      It (declining ROR) needs a combination of excellent agitation (correct drum RPM) for the drums diameter and batch size coupled with just the right amount of airflow to allow the seeds to spend enough time in that hot air. All the while hitting correct Environment Temps for roasting coffee which are pretty well established, roughly 235 - 260C. The more that roasting environment is tuned for convection with lots of agitation, the faster your roasts can be at lower Environment Temperature. Depending on how big the drum (or no drum / beer can popcorn chamber) is dictates how soon / quickly you can wind back heat input to finish roast with a declining ROR, but also a steady Environment Temp which bends down towards meeting rising BT somewhere after peak of first crack - end of first crack onwards until hitting desired end temperature.

      Most roasting systems / machines bought or made probably have an ideal
      "profile" for a given batch size, appropriate ET and end roast level which is just a by product of its design / quirks and getting the best roast out of that particular system for whoever is drinking the coffee.

      In my experience its possible to get a cusp of / just starting 2nd crack without "technically" baking the roast and if using the appropriate green (sth / central American and some Indonesian) it can have all goopy body and chocolates anyone can want without introducing roast defects from over manipulating " roast profiles".

      Thats just my current understanding of things.









      Comment


      • #8
        what is the difference between "baked" and "over roasted"?
        Baked = time.
        Over roasted = roast depth

        You can't bake in a short time, you can over roast in a short or long time and you can over roast past the point that specific coffee shines.

        Comment


        • Steve82
          Steve82 commented
          Editing a comment
          "You can't bake in a short time"
          Sorry Andy but this maybe true for you and your 10kg? roaster but its just not true speaking in general.

      • #9
        Originally posted by Andy View Post

        Baked = time.
        Over roasted = roast depth

        You can't bake in a short time, you can over roast in a short or long time and you can over roast past the point that specific coffee shines.
        I was asking more about flavour profile, I couldn't tell from your response to Yochiya which you were talking about.

        That being said I agree with Steve, I can certainly produce a baked coffee in less time than the same bean would normally take to produce a good coffee. I had this happen just last week: since I fixed the accuracy issue with the Heatsnob I've had to rejig all my roast profiles and I mucked up a Limmu roast and got awful baked coffee in double quick time.

        Comment


        • #10
          Clearly quite a divisive 'defect'. Huge thanks to everyone for pitching in.

          Comment


          • #11
            I guess it just reinforces the need to monitor your roast profiles via the results you observe in the cup and update one's roast profiles based on this. Nothing else really matters...

            Mal.

            Comment


          • #12
            This is a fascinating topic and worth making a few observations.

            First up, "baked" is definitely a quality imposed by roasting conditions that you can taste. I've tried multiple roast development kits. It's hard to describe. Bready is not bad; I think the best description I've heard is probably what you taste when you taste those boiled coffee candies. In this sense, you can see why people say that "baked" is surprisingly common. To many, "baked" is the flavour of coffee. If you've heard someone use the phrase "I want coffee that tastes like coffee", they are probably asking for "baked" coffee.

            The aroma and flavour of "baked" coffee is definitely an important aspect, but that fails to describe the entirety of it. Usually "baked" coffee suppresses the unique and distinctive aromas that the coffee could show, so it deprives the coffee of its potential, in some senses. There's some good news in this, though, since if you like or are used to "baked" coffee, it could be hiding green defects that you might otherwise notice and not like. Baked coffee also has a longer, rougher aftertaste that I personally find pretty unpleasant. It doesn't leave you with a clean feeling mouth, or a sensation of juiciness. It also tends to increase astringency.

            It's a topic that gets peoples' hackles up because not only is it poorly explained, but it has value judgments in it about how coffee should taste, and people have a wide variety of taste preferences. I agree with Andy - try a bunch of different things and pick what you like. It also inflames passions because people on the interwebs are such children when it comes to discussing their preferences. Coffee is (mostly) a tradeoff and if you make coffee more to your liking in one way, it will often be at the cost of making it less to your liking in another way. But people seldom acknowledge and discuss the tradeoffs; they usually talk about the good aspects and bury their head in the sand about the things in their subjective preferences that others might not like. For example, I'll put my cards on the table and say that my personal preference is quite light roasts that emphasise the distinctiveness of different coffees. They definitely have more acidity and often less body than darker or longer in time roasts (unusually in the world of coffee, acidity is a variable can be addressed independently to some extent by adding carbonate). What is often less spoken about is that there are many different ways that light roasts can be screwed up that might all be described as underdeveloped; drastic underdevelopment isn't even vegetal, it's just bland and malty, for example.

            Finally, I'd observe that all of this stuff about ROR and temperature graphs and all of that is not necessarily wrong, but usually it gets dumbed down to "Scott Rao wrote that I should have a straight line declining ROR and that is what this graph shows". Well those rules of thumb are applicable to a particular set of variables, and people often seem to ignore that. A pro trying to do that will be using a bean temp reading, probably off a 3mm k-type probe in a drum roaster, and well-submerged in a very large bean mass. If you have something like a kaffelogic, the conditions are totally different - it's a bead probe that is exposed to a dramatically higher airflow, and is probably more reflective of something like the the lowest environment temperature in a drum roaster than it is of the bean temperature. But nothing is going to stop the flood of people taking any old probe reading from any point and trying to get a straight line declining ROR profile, then scratching their heads about it.

            Comment


            • yochiya
              yochiya commented
              Editing a comment
              Seriously good food for thought. This reinforces my liking for collaboration when it comes to Coffee.

            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              Very helpful. Thanks.

          • #13
            Always thought provoking Luca... Love it.

            Mal.

            Comment


            • #14
              Lots of good points above and a lot of people have alluded to the fact that ‘baked’ is not something that happens in isolation. Most other roast defects can happen on their own, but ‘baked’ doesn’t. Baked can and does happen at every roast level of both poorly developed and otherwise well developed roasts. The perfect vehicle to explain this is the Behmor 1600+ and the way I’ve been using it for years based on most of what I read online as well as my own experiments. I recently modified it and can monitor bean temp now and it’s been a real eye opener. What I’ve found is that the standard approach that I was taking of cutting the burner power right down at first crack was completely stalling each roast. And I mean completely stalling. I always wondered why even with really light fast roasts I would always struggle to get a really bright and flavoursome filter roast on the Behmor. Espresso roasts weren’t a problem, but attempts at filter roasts have been virtually all lackluster no matter what green coffee I used. That to me is the main trait of a baked roast (one that’s stalled around first crack anyway)- blandness. The roast depth and other factors will then just decide what other negative flavours you get at the same time. A lighter baked roast could have some grassy, green hints for example. And then the stage of the roast at which it baked will affect things as well. If what I’m seeing in my Behmor is a truthful representation of what’s going on then I’d say that baked roasts are very common and as long as they’re not too light they’re perfectly drinkable in many situations and as Luca said they’re what many people will be accustomed to.

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