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  • #16
    Re: Frothing or shot first

    The shot has a smaller surface area so will lose heat slower then a jug full of milk just left on the bench while you prepare your shot.
    I was wondering about that... wouldnt a smaller amount of liquid cool down much quicker than a large amount of liquid at the same temperature? (i do know that an espresso shot temperature is at a higher temp than steamed milk, but bear with me :P)

    Whilst the espresso shot has a smaller surface area and wont be exposed to as much cooler temp air, wouldnt it cool down quicker than the steamed milk due to there being less liquid in contact with air so that there is i guess, less to cool down? (Thus more contact in terms of ratio of cooler temp to amount of liquid its exposed to?)

    Does that make any sense? lol

    I could be MASSIVELY wrong (and havent done physics in while..), just curious :P

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    • #17
      Re: Frothing or shot first

      Ok, with any Single boiler dual purpose machine, the shot has to be pulled first, its nothing to do with the cooling rates of different liquids exposed to the elements/different surface areas etc, its to do with the group temperature, if you streach your milk first then pull your shot, your shot brew temp will be through the roof. during the steaming process, the boiler reaches temps in excess of 135C the thermal heat transfer to the group will raise your brew temp by up to 10C!, way to hot, bitter coffee coming your way! with a silvia, it can take 10 mins to get the group back to brewing temps after steaming.....

      So brew, then steam on a single boiler dual purpose machine......

      obviously this all changes on a dual boiler or HX machine, where you can do both at once, time it right and you can stop your shot, pour your milk as soon as its streched! love it!

      Hope this helps folks

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      • #18
        Re: Frothing or shot first

        haha true that, the next step, coffee you inhale as a gas

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        • #19
          Re: Frothing or shot first

          Originally posted by 7F656163627F67347E0C0 link=1191626628/15#15 date=1264118485
          I was wondering about that... wouldnt a smaller amount of liquid cool down much quicker than a large amount of liquid at the same temperature? (i do know that an espresso shot temperature is at a higher temp than steamed milk, but bear with me )

          Whilst the espresso shot has a smaller surface area and wont be exposed to as much cooler temp air, wouldnt it cool down quicker than the steamed milk due to there being less liquid in contact with air so that there is i guess, less to cool down? (Thus more contact in terms of ratio of cooler temp to amount of liquid its exposed to?)
          It is just me or does that make no sense.

          If you are worried about your shot cooling too fast you can always put it on the cup warming tray. The milk if it was steamed first am sure would be a lot harder to separate the milk from the foam as it will have settled by then. And also you hear experts say you should swirl the milk around in jug around after steaming so the foam doesnt settle.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Frothing or shot first

            I always do my shot first, place it on the warming tray and then do my milk.

            The shot seems to retain its heat and consistency when sitting for a minute or two whereas the same cant be said for the milk.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Frothing or shot first

              Originally posted by 434C575B43464354220 link=1191626628/18#18 date=1264140459
              Originally posted by 7F656163627F67347E0C0 link=1191626628/15#15 date=1264118485
              I was wondering about that... wouldnt a smaller amount of liquid cool down much quicker than a large amount of liquid at the same temperature? (i do know that an espresso shot temperature is at a higher temp than steamed milk, but bear with me )

              Whilst the espresso shot has a smaller surface area and wont be exposed to as much cooler temp air, wouldnt it cool down quicker than the steamed milk due to there being less liquid in contact with air so that there is i guess, less to cool down? (Thus more contact in terms of ratio of cooler temp to amount of liquid its exposed to?)  
              It is just me or does that make no sense.  

              If you are worried about your shot cooling too fast you can always put it on the cup warming tray. The milk if it was steamed first am sure would be a lot harder to separate the milk from the foam as it will have settled by then. And also you hear experts say you should swirl the milk around in jug around after steaming so the foam doesnt settle.
              You are perfectly right, that didnt make any sense at all. :-?

              Anyway, yes, shot first, then milk! Doesnt seem like much of a conundrum at all, given pretty much everyone who answered shared the same views. 8-)

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Frothing or shot first

                haha... it made sense to me :P

                Doesnt matter anyways, i just seem to find that if i left a shot of espresso sitting inside a pre-heated demitasse, it will cool down fairly quickly, within a few minutes it will have drastically lowered in temperature. Milk on the other hand seems to gradually lower alot slower...

                Anyways, I usually do my shot first then milk, was just ranting

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Frothing or shot first

                  Originally posted by 6B342C3A313A363F3F3C3C343837590 link=1191626628/1#1 date=1191627073
                  You will never see a barista texture milk first- this is for untrained button pushers!
                  I can tell you that I have seen a LaSpaz Barista Trainer texturing the milk first. And it wasnt a mistake. I asked why he did that an he said "to preserve the crema, coffee should never wait"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Frothing or shot first

                    Originally posted by 2F342F2E400 link=1191626628/22#22 date=1265385488
                    Originally posted by 6B342C3A313A363F3F3C3C343837590 link=1191626628/1#1 date=1191627073
                    You will never see a barista texture milk first- this is for untrained button pushers!
                    I can tell you that I have seen a LaSpaz Barista Trainer texturing the milk first. And it wasnt a mistake. I asked why he did that an he said "to preserve the crema, coffee should never wait"
                    :-? Hes no trainer then! The milk will happen more rapidly than the shot. Why didnt he work simultaneously? No commercial experience?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Frothing or shot first

                      If you are about to pour 4 ounces (120ml)(or more) of hot milk into two ounces (60ml) of espresso, why worry about the crema? The texture of the milk is more important. And if enough of the crema doesnt last as long as it takes to stretch the milk, then there is something wrong with the espresso. And if using a home HX or DB machine, or any commercial machine, then the tasks can be accomplished simultaneously as has already been mentioned.

                      For example, take a look at the crema in my image to the left
                      <----------------------- .. How long do you think that will last?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Frothing or shot first

                        I suggest that you watch some of the barista championship videos and latté art videos, and see how they do it.

                        Greg

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Frothing or shot first

                          Originally posted by 043738322F091178560 link=1191626628/24#24 date=1265396418
                          For example, take a look at the crema in my image to the left
                          <-----------------------  ..  How long do you think that will last?  
                          if it was siting in my hand.....I guess about 15 seconds! Yummm ;D

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Frothing or shot first

                            Originally posted by 6A716A6B050 link=1191626628/22#22 date=1265385488
                            Originally posted by 6B342C3A313A363F3F3C3C343837590 link=1191626628/1#1 date=1191627073
                            You will never see a barista texture milk first- this is for untrained button pushers!
                            I can tell you that I have seen a LaSpaz Barista Trainer texturing the milk first. And it wasnt a mistake. I asked why he did that an he said "to preserve the crema, coffee should never wait"
                            Ive heard this too from the supervisor in my previous job who has done a barista course, any validity to it? Let us examine! Is it not said that the crema contains a vast portion of the aroma and taste, and is vital to a great quality shot? (i dont know about majority of the aroma and taste, but it is very important... may have to do some research regarding taste characteristics for a shot with crema vs. shot with crema but has dissipated over time.....) Also keeping in mind that yes a double-shot will have a more lasting crema (although it does dissipate at a slow rate), and the crema on a single shot will fairly rapidly disappear...

                            Please correct any misunderstandings i have! And every video i have seen it has been shot first then milk... but just because something is commonly done doesnt mean its correct

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                            • #29
                              Re: Frothing or shot first



                              My preference is steam milk after extraction

                              If milk is left unused for even a short time after steaming the micro-foam stiffens up

                              KK

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                              • #30
                                Re: Frothing or shot first

                                I agree KK - the foam does stiffen up.

                                The ideal would be to do both the shot and steam the milk simultaneously. I tried that the other day and did a bad job with both the espresso and the milk so a lot more practice before I do that again.

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