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  • reasonable or snob

    Hi All,  

    OK, I need some help... Im finding myself becoming more and more demanding of cafes - especially in regard to their milk frothing/handling techniques. If this keeps up, Ill end up black-banning all of my local coffee shops.

    Im a coffee snob at home and wouldnt dream of doing any of the below to my guests but am I asking too much of cafes to not (in perceived order of evilness):

    1. When frothing for a latte, placing the jug under the wand and sitting it unattended on the machine tray for the duration of the steaming (rather than altering the depth as the milk expands and monitoring the temperature)

    2. steaming milk and serving one customer and then for the next order, checking the quantity of milk left in the jug, and if sufficient, giving it a few seconds of steam to reheat it and then pouring.

    3. putting a jug of left over steamed milk in the fridge, and then resteaming it after its cooled.

    Am I being too demanding and unrealistic? Is it likely that my favourite baristas are doing similar techniques when safely hidden behind a tall counter?

  • #2
    Re: reasonable or snob

    I think you need to seriously think about drinking espressi.

    Too many things can go wrong re: milk.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: reasonable or snob

      Hi cwmoore,

      We are all demanding and sometimes unrealistic - welcome to the club!

      1 - Depends. Some places do this and it works OK. Where I go, they often will do this (but DO put a thermometer in to monitor temp) and the quality is still good.

      2 - Yuck. The quick re-heating is the issue with me. I have seen places do a 2nd cup with the same jug after a 20 second gap. The milk is possibly still in the right area of temp, but the barista should be doing correct amounts for the current orders.

      3 - Thats walking out territory for me. Big no-no.

      Good (busy) baristas might have to make a few short cuts, but there are some things that the good ones will not compromise on.

      Things I look for when Im in a place for the first time (or a new barista):
      Fresh milk in the jug for each steam (not a top up), and no crusty stuff on the rim or outside.
      Wand gets a purge and a clean after every jug steamed.
      PF gets wiped after each puck knocked out
      Grinder hopper is not full of ground coffee unless they are very busy.

      It only takes a minute or two to see this in places where you have a view. If I dont have a view, I normally wont order from them.

      Just my opinion.

      Brett.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: reasonable or snob

        #1 is ok if the barista knows their machine, I have seen some great microfoam made that way.

        #2 & #3... Im with Nunu and Fatboy, either order black or run away screaming like the milk just did!



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: reasonable or snob

          I wouldnt judge cafes like I used to now Ive worked at a busy one.
          I do number 1 and can get very good milk, good enough to pour art easily. Off 2 and 3 though.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: reasonable or snob

            I see those things happen all the time too,. never bothered me before, but as I learned more about making good coffee,. I watch more closely in cafes and get put off more easily with the habits of some coffee making folk (cos theyre not all baristas let me just say).

            No3,.no way. I can handle No1 & No2 but only when a cafe is busy and theyre making coffee one after the other. One place I often go, the woman who makes the coffee does No1 and moves to the next machine and does the same,.she works on two group 3 machines and goes back and forth between both. I was put off at first, seeing this, but her foam was awesome. She obviously has found the perfect way to prop up the jugs because it works well. She also does No2 and again I thought ack!..but when I watched her for longer,. she did it only while there was a line of people waiting for coffee, ie..one coffee straight after the other.

            If I were to walk into a cafe and was the only one to order, I would hate to see these things occur however. 8-)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: reasonable or snob

              Can I ask for a clarification of no.3 please? I read somewhere, years ago, cant remember where, that it was ok to do this as long as you topped up with at least 2/3rds fresh milk. So 1/3 reheated, to 2/3rds fresh. Whats your thoughts on this practice?

              Or perhaps I misread and they meant 1/3rd still hot from previous steaming to 2/3rds fresh cold milk???

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: reasonable or snob

                Theres a quick solution to nos 1,2 & 3 - Double espresso. Thats how I solve it. haha... Sorry that wasnt very helpful; just couldnt help myself. If I noticed 2&3 going on, it does give note on what their other practices may be like.

                While on the idea of baristi practices; do you mind when a barista scoops up the leftover grinds in the tray(under the pf holder), or worse- the bench, to put them back into the doser (or straight into the pf) to make your coffee? I dont think its as bad as the milk thing, but I hate seeing it when its my coffee.

                Yeeza

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: reasonable or snob

                  Originally posted by Bill link=1201602645/0#6 date=1201661860
                  Can I ask for a clarification of no.3 please? I read somewhere, years ago, cant remember where, that it was ok to do this as long as you topped up with at least 2/3rds fresh milk. So 1/3 reheated, to 2/3rds fresh. Whats your thoughts on this practice?

                  Or perhaps I misread and they meant 1/3rd still hot from previous steaming to 2/3rds fresh cold milk???
                  Ive had people tell me its ok to use 1/3 recycled to 2/3 fresh over the years but mainly for cafes to cut down on wastage, personally i just train people to do the right amount of milk.
                  #1 is a technique i use all day every day, it allows you to get through the customers alot quicker and use two machines at once. its all about finding the magic angle, as you aerate milk it expands putting the nozzle of the steamer below the surface of the milk they trick is to have it angled so that it doesnt aerate too much or too little before this happens.
                  as for 2# and #3: wouldnt dream of it!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: reasonable or snob

                    I dont mind excess coffee going back into the doser if:
                    A - They are not just keeping a full chamber of ground coffee.
                    B - It is just from levelling the PF.

                    If it has hit the dregs tray (so named for a reason) or the bench, then I dont want to see it back in the doser.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: reasonable or snob

                      Originally posted by nunu link=1201602645/0#1 date=1201603814
                      I think you need to seriously think about drinking espressi.

                      Too many things can go wrong re: milk.
                      I know a lot of people who subscribe to the "milk covers over a multitude of sins" school of thought. I dont.

                      Im inclined to think that if a place cant get milk right, the chances are the espresso will suck too.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: reasonable or snob


                        I know a lot of people who subscribe to the "milk covers over a multitude of sins" school of thought. I dont.

                        Im inclined to think that if a place cant get milk right, the chances are the espresso will suck too.[/QUOTE]

                        Id have to agree with you there Michelle. If I go into a cafe you should be able to expect that its gonna be good practices all round.
                        One thing though, Im glad no one is judging me on my ability to pull a shot from my ability (or lack thereof) to do milk. Being an espresso drinker Im a bit delayed on the milk front. My appreciation is slowly getting there though.

                        YeeZa

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: reasonable or snob

                          Its also a case of I dont like the taste of coffee with milk. The furthest I would probably go is a doppio piccolo latte.

                          Milk is a big worry. Most places surely heat the milk above 70C, but even places that heat the milk around 65C or less, yet recycle the milk can still give your tummy a nasty surprise.

                          Food safety applies to baristi as well.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: reasonable or snob

                            Originally posted by cwmoore link=1201602645/0#0 date=1201602645
                            Hi All,

                            OK, I need some help... Im finding myself becoming more and more demanding of cafes - especially in regard to their milk frothing/handling techniques. If this keeps up, Ill end up black-banning all of my local coffee shops.

                            Im a coffee snob at home and wouldnt dream of doing any of the below to my guests but am I asking too much of cafes to not (in perceived order of evilness):

                            1. When frothing for a latte, placing the jug under the wand and sitting it unattended on the machine tray for the duration of the steaming (rather than altering the depth as the milk expands and monitoring the temperature)

                            2. steaming milk and serving one customer and then for the next order, checking the quantity of milk left in the jug, and if sufficient, giving it a few seconds of steam to reheat it and then pouring.

                            3. putting a jug of left over steamed milk in the fridge, and then resteaming it after its cooled.

                            Am I being too demanding and unrealistic? Is it likely that my favourite baristas are doing similar techniques when safely hidden behind a tall counter?
                            Hi There,

                            Ill just touch briefly on the points you have. Firstly, I will just say that I work in a busy espresso bar in the morning. From the time I roll the doors open at 8am until 11.30am to 12pm I do not get a chance to get off the machine. Im finding Im getting busier and busier everyday. This is quite good considered Im located in a Zone 1 industrial area....lots of white and blue collar and that I only serve coffee....no food to be had as it is not a cafe. More volume means I need to often streamline my work flow or find faster ways to do things so that I work as efficiently as possible without sacrificing quality.

                            So here we go...my thoughts on your points you raised.

                            #1 - I must confess, I do this. Only on a 1L jug. I know my machine well...how fast it heats milk and how to get perfect microfoam using this method. I prop my jug up on a 8oz take away cup or a 300mL jug. If I overheat the milk I simply restart. No point in pushing out bad coffee - even if I have a big line...its only an extra minute and a few cents of milk. People are willing to wait within reason. With the time I buy myself by letting the milk steam itself, I can take money from customers, take more orders or load up another handle and brew a shot.

                            #2 - I never reheat milk....ever. If Im extremely busy and by myself and have run out of jugs (I have 3x 300mL jugs, 6x 600mL jugs and 5x 1L jugs) I simply tip whatever is remaining in the sink, quick rinse at tap and load fresh milk up for the next lot of orders. When I get my lull, I throw everything in the dishwasher.

                            #3 - Again is simply a no-no. Not to condemn those who do it. They have simply never been properly trained in making coffee.

                            I have no tall counter to hide behind. Only a few glass jars of tea which hide away 14 milk jugs, take away lids, saucers and spoons. This is the side I take orders, steam milk and serve on.

                            So in summary, in my opinion, I think number 1 is okay. Number 2 and 3 are big no-nos, no matter how busy you are - there should always be fresh jugs and fresh milk. When you make coffee long enough, you figure out how much milk you need...to the last drop!

                            Cheers,

                            David

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: reasonable or snob

                              Originally posted by fatboy link=1201602645/0#9 date=1201667165
                              I dont mind excess coffee going back into the doser if:
                              A - They are not just keeping a full chamber of ground coffee.
                              B - It is just from levelling the PF.

                              If it has hit the dregs tray (so named for a reason) or the bench, then I dont want to see it back in the doser.

                              The mind just boggles. I know people who put espresso coffee that has been on the grounds tray back in to the doser. :-[

                              Comment

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