Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
This topic is a bit old, but I had a major win today and though Id share it. I got an iPhone on 24 month contract through a major Australian telecommunications company, treated it like it was made of glass (because it was) and it broke down completely after about 14 months. It took 6 months for me to get it replaced AFTER suing them. They paid my considerable costs, compensation, fines to the state and ACCC and replaced the phone. The legislation is there to protect you if you know it is there, but the retailers pretend that it isnt by providing illegal limited warranties. You are entitiled to get what you paid for, whatever that is, not for 12 months of service.
They pretended to be under the impression that they never implied that my phone on 24 month contract would last for 24 months. Un-effing believable considering the Trade Practices Acts in this country. This is a tight community of like minded people, and Im not saying that any retailers here are rip off merchants, but most businesses are. You dont make money by giving it away before you absolutely have to...
Would I go through it again? Abso-effing-lutely, people need to know what they are and arent entitled to. I really dont understand why the existing legislation isnt enforced to prevent retailers denying statutory rights and conditions of sale.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Despite the best intentions of the shiny culo biro pushers, most of whom have no idea, yet are charged with the responsibility to legislate this rubbish, I am with Attilio- I dont see that much will change. Ethical businesses will continue to operate ethically and dodgy ones will continue to be dodgy. I wish it would protect me from crappy builders, shonly solicitors and dodgy financial planners, but it wont.
If we here expect the ACCC to achieve anything, were all mistaken. They have been proven to be toothless over and over again. Its not going to change.
As for coffee machinery, the majority of stuff I see arriving for service and/or repair from Joe Average and CSers too has been abused. I have a 1 year old DS on the bench today which has been left on 24/7, was filthy and is laden with scale from the "special filtered water" its been run on. It looks 10 years old. Warranty? No way. Jose. :
Its great for people to sit on the outer and have opinions, however the reality at the coalface differs substantially from what might happen in your home.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Ive been waiting to see if someone in CS would come up with that one!
ie, "I bought a semi commercial or commercial machine and therefore expect it should last a lot longer than a domestic machine". Domestic machine is guaranteed to be free of defective manufacture and assembly for 1 year, therefore the semi commercial / commercial (insert your favourite brand / model here) should be good for ............ years ???????????????
I expect then, that while some passenger vehicles have a 3 year warranty, that if I buy a work utility instead for the wife to take the kids to school and do the shopping, it should be guaranteed for say 9 years because it should be able to handle the pace for longer than a passenger vehicle?????
You may be interested to know that in the service trade we often enough see the effects on equipment of it not being used enough (ie used a lot less than intended for the type of equipment it is).
This is the problem with someones (anyones) expectation of what is...."reasonable"......and who is the arbitrator that makes that decision in an informed way, for countless different goods of different qualities sold new and having a "warranty"?
As with all things in life, you have to have a cut off point that everyone is aware of, and there will always be clients pushing to get things done after the cut off point, as there will always be traders that will "fight" that, whether anyone thinks it is fair or not. Depends on the individual situation, only the two parties concerned can actually know what is actually going on, and the rest is as usual, academic.
For the rest of it, (reference to importers operating then closing down etc), this could be a tad cynical in that, I am sure very few businesses operate just to try and deliberately catch people out, then close down because they are trying to get out of their responsibilities (whatever they may be sometime in the future). Perhaps I misunderstood.
Regardz,
A
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
If you buy a commercial grade machine and use it domestically it would be reasonable to expect long life from the machine.
If you prices 5 Kg or more through the machine most days it would be reasonable to expect the machine to last a nothing like as long.
What stops importers from operating a few years and then closing down or (selling the business along with all the liabilities to someone for very little)?
After all you cant get blood from a stone.
However user abuse has never been covered by warrantee.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Anyone who thinks any bureaucrat and/or politician could possibly produce a document which offers protection against either a consumer or supplier whose intentions are less than honourable, is dreaming.
Unless there is a clause within the legislation which allows action against either consumer, retailer or supplier based on them not remaining within the "spirit" of a law then such regulations are like photographs of nude models.
No matter how good they look, when push comes to shove, theyre STILL only pieces of paper.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Thanks for that.Originally posted by 59515F57554F4F535F573C0 link=1296845379/42#42 date=1297139468apologies for the misunderstanding.
I have no idea, but would apply the same philosophy Ive always had in regard to purchases on fleabay.Originally posted by 59515F57554F4F535F573C0 link=1296845379/43#43 date=1297141041One thing Im curious about and havent ben able to spot on my scanning of the new laws. Online auction transactions are now included, but international transactions arent. If I buy a product from an Australian fleabay user, but it ships ffrom outside australia, am I covered by the new law?
Im guessing that it will depend on whether I get an Australian tax invoice or not, but does anyone know?
1) If the goods arrive, I am relieved
2) If they are as described, I am delighted
3) If I have any expectation at all that I have any practical recourse in the event of a warranty claim, I know I am dreaming
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
One thing Im curious about and havent been able to spot on my scanning of the new laws. Online auction transactions are now included, but international transactions arent. If I buy a product from an Australian fleabay user, but it ships ffrom outside australia, am I covered by the new law?
Im guessing that it will depend on whether I get an Australian tax invoice or not, but does anyone know?
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
That paragraph was not intended to refer to the quote from you, I should have spaced it further apart as I can see now that it does read like that, apologies for the misunderstanding.Originally posted by 5F7E757572681B0 link=1296845379/40#40 date=1297121850Yes, and Im taking a guess here that you are not employed in any part of this chain, otherwise you would know that real life generally does not reflect or rely on a standardised document.
Where did I do that? I have very limited patience with people who distort my position.Originally posted by 39313F37352F2F333F375C0 link=1296845379/38#38 date=1297112261I have very limited sympathy for traders that complain about how hard it is to do business if they dont take the time to understand their rights and responsibilities.
I intended it in general terms relating to the thread as a whole - there does seem to be a tendency for some contributors to paint traders as victims rather than see opportunities.
FYI, my business is not in the coffee industry, but I do run my own company. Primarily services, but with some retail on the side. All my current suppliers and customers are Australian, but that may change - hence my interest in the Vienna Sales Convention earlier.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Re:
"...real life generally does not reflect or rely on a standardised document..."
And once again Dennis, well put.
"...off to make my next million..." Geeze mate you will be able to afford to buy a car shortly!
And thank you TG for this "...Ive never had a problem with a site sponsor, its bad traders I gun for..."
Regardz,
Attilio
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Yes, and Im taking a guess here that you are not employed in any part of this chain, otherwise you would know that real life generally does not reflect or rely on a standardised document.Originally posted by 39313F37352F2F333F375C0 link=1296845379/38#38 date=1297112261The terms of trade and details of transactions between retail traders and their suppliers tend to be better standardised and documented than those between end customers and their suppliers. This means it willbe easier to resolve disputes further back in the chain.
Where did I do that? I have very limited patience with people who distort my position.Originally posted by 39313F37352F2F333F375C0 link=1296845379/38#38 date=1297112261I have very limited sympathy for traders that complain about how hard it is to do business if they dont take the time to understand their rights and responsibilities.
Am off now to make my next million.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
A. I care!Originally posted by 26120513083F230F06060505600 link=1296845379/37#37 date=1297058183Hello T. There is only one teensy problem with that bit of information.......no one give a rats about traders....its really only about protecting the end consumer.
I used that bit of information previously when traders tried it on and told me I had to deal direct with the manufacturer.
I pointed out that legally I had to deal with them and that they had their own purchase transaction to deal with.
I think this says it quite well.Originally posted by 050D030B0913130F030B600 link=1296845379/38#38 date=1297112261I dont see anything in the legislation aimed at protecting the END consumer. Every transaction is between a supplier and a consumer.
Most of the traders on this forum are intermediaries. In all transactions they are either consumer or supplier and the law gives them the same protections and obligations as anybody else.
And remember, Ive never had a problem with a site sponsor, its bad traders I gun for.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Originally posted by 7B4F584E55627E525B5B58583D0 link=1296845379/37#37 date=1297058183Hello T. There is only one teensy problem with that bit of information.......no one give a rats about traders....its really only about protecting the end consumer.
I dont see anything in the legislation aimed at protecting the END consumer. Every transaction is between a supplier and a consumer.
Most of the traders on this forum are intermediaries. In all transactions they are either consumer or supplier and the law gives them the same protections and obligations as anybody else.
One reason protections are stronger for consumers is they are usually in the weaker position.
Here you seem to be suggesting that the retail trader (consumer) is in a weaker position than the importer (supplier). Perhaps the new consumer law will be a help to you here and prevent you becoming the meat in the sandwich?Originally posted by 7B4F584E55627E525B5B58583D0 link=1296845379/34#34 date=1296950231All a retail trader can do is pass something back the line as far as it can which usually means the importer. Importers are not at the retail coal face and not "emotionally involved" with the retail client. If they decide something is not warrantable or is outside the designated period, this leaves the retailer to be the meat in the sandwich.
Also, noted before:
The terms of trade and details of transactions between retail traders and their suppliers tend to be better standardised and documented than those between end customers and their suppliers. This means it will be easier to resolve disputes further back in the chain.Originally posted by 79585353544E3D0 link=1296845379/35#35 date=1296960981Simply that every part of the interaction between consumer and trader during the sale is part and parcel of the warranty. Memories of what occured and may have been stated are likely to differ in the event of a dispute.
I have very limited sympathy for traders that complain about how hard it is to do business if they dont take the time to understand their rights and responsibilities. It is part and parcel of running a business and none of us are forced to do it. In Australia at least, there are plenty of opportunities to work for someone else and leave these headaches behind.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
Hello T. There is only one teensy problem with that bit of information.......no one give a rats about traders....its really only about protecting the end consumer.Originally posted by 1C203D262C2D3A2F272C480 link=1296845379/36#36 date=1296998864This situation is where the old Statutory Warranty also protected the retailer....
In this situation the Importer is the "Seller" and the Retailer is the "Buyer" and the same law applies as does in the Retailer/Consumer transaction............In other words, each buyer and seller are treated respectively as such no matter where they are in the chain..........
Never the less, as Dennis so eloquently put it, "...the reality is that nothing at all is going to change in my neck of the woods..."
Regardz,
A.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
This situation is where the old Statutory Warranty also protected the retailer.Originally posted by 033720362D1A062A23232020450 link=1296845379/34#34 date=1296950231All a retail trader can do is pass something back the line as far as it can which usually means the importer. Importers are not at the retail coal face and not "emotionally involved" with the retail client. If they decide something is not warrantable or is outside the designated period, this leaves the retailer to be the meat in the sandwich.
In this situation the Importer is the "Seller" and the Retailer is the "Buyer" and the same law applies as does in the Retailer/Consumer transaction.
If the new law is standardising all the state laws into one then should it not still apply?
In other words, each buyer and seller are treated respectively as such no matter where they are in the chain.
P.S.
I dont think they ever did.Originally posted by 043027312A1D012D24242727420 link=1296845379/31#31 date=1296946792It would appear honest traders selling quality goods dont have much to fear.
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Re: Australian Consumer Law - NEW!
This is the problem with most laws and an opportunity to get it right with this one has been lost.Originally posted by 27212C352D2139400 link=1296845379/33#33 date=1296948771The "reasonable man" test is a common test in our legal system and is a clearly understood legal term - although it may cause some confusion amongst lay people.
Simply that every part of the interaction between consumer and trader during the sale is part and parcel of the warranty. Memories of what occured and may have been stated are likely to differ in the event of a dispute.Originally posted by 27212C352D2139400 link=1296845379/33#33 date=1296948771Perhaps you could help me understand what you think has changed to create grey area within a 12 month warranty?
Anyway, the reality is that nothing at all is going to change in my neck of the woods.
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