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The carbon tax won't have any affect on retail prices, HA.

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  • The carbon tax won't have any affect on retail prices, HA.

    Just ordered a 45kg cylinder of gas and with falling oil prices I expected a lower price than I was charged, you guessed it, the dealer told me there was a price reduction, however, the application of the carbon tax necessitated a small increase.

  • #2
    Who is claiming that carbon tax won't affect any retail prices? The whole point of it is to change the relative price of goods/services, and for people to adjust their consumption accordingly. Whether or not particular individuals are better or worse off is a function of whatever compo (tax cuts / handouts) they received relative to the increased cost of the stuff they consume. If the tax doesn't affect prices, then it really is pointless.

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    • #3
      Local cardboard manufacturers are one of the biggest hit, so anything with a cardboard box made locally will be affected, among other things. Don't get me started on the government's "brilliant" solution to offset local carbon tax impact. How does giving the consumer more money offset the cost (tax) that the local manufacturer's now have to bear? The cashed up consumer still has the ability to make a decision to choose how to spend their money. Given the option of a now much cheaper imported product compared to an inflated local product which do you think they would choose? The money in the consumer pocket means they can spend more, but the money does not directly tie in with the carbon tax. Local manufacturers that have to compete agains overseas imports were already fighting a losing battle, this is just kicking them while they are down.

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      • #4
        Just out of interest, How much was the 'increase' that was put on the gas bottle because of the carbon tax?
        Also, Cost of oil does not influence the cost of LPG, which is a totally different priceing market, What you are doing is looking at the price of tea and using that as a guage for the price of coffee beans, While they may be used for similar things, Does not mean that they're priced accordingly

        on top of all that, if you feel that your distributer is gouging the price to 'make up' for the losses he "may" make under the carbon tax, you have the right to ring up the ACCC and complain. One of the big things that the Federal government said they would do was to act on any price gouging/

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        • #5
          The price of LPG certainly fluctuates, the retailer mentioned it was tied to oil prices, perhaps not, but this from Origin goes into a little more detail,
          "LPG prices
          LPG prices are variable and subject to change for each delivery according to movements in the world market price for LPG, changes in the value of the Australian dollar and the costs of supplying gas to you."

          I'm not whinging about the rise, and I'm not suggesting the supplier is gouging, retailers have every right to pass on govt charges.
          My post was based on govt statements that the carbon tax would have a (minimal) affect on retail prices, my last bottle cost me $115 this one cost me $130 not sure how much of that is carbon tax related, it certainly makes you wonder.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by saoye View Post
            Local cardboard manufacturers are one of the biggest hit, so anything with a cardboard box made locally will be affected, among other things. Don't get me started on the government's "brilliant" solution to offset local carbon tax impact. How does giving the consumer more money offset the cost (tax) that the local manufacturer's now have to bear? The cashed up consumer still has the ability to make a decision to choose how to spend their money. Given the option of a now much cheaper imported product compared to an inflated local product which do you think they would choose? The money in the consumer pocket means they can spend more, but the money does not directly tie in with the carbon tax. Local manufacturers that have to compete agains overseas imports were already fighting a losing battle, this is just kicking them while they are down.
            Your point re imports is spot on (I wasn't suggesting that the carbon tax was a good or bad thing....just that there is no point if relative prices do not change). In terms of industries that will struggle because Aust consumers buy less of its product in total (i.e. fewer cardboard boxes are used in australia), well that is pretty much the intention of the tax (not saying that is a nice outcome for those directly affected). Now of course, the reality of the situation is quite different from the textbook case....there are all sorts of concessional carve outs to interest groups, the rate of the tax is way too high (thanks Greens), the imported goods issue that you have raised, and the fact that the Euro tradable pollution rights market went into meltdown a year ago or so.

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            • #7
              Of course your beans order was shipped today in a locally produced cardboard box
              It was produced (in bulk) before the carbon tax so I don't know what the price impact will be until I run out... and they won't know the price impact until they start getting higher bills from their suppliers etc etc.

              The bills I've had this month with a slight bump because of carbon tax have been:

              Gas price +
              Waste + (skip bin for the Snobbery as there isn't a council service)
              Electricity ++ (double hit, we already pay extra for green hydro power yet the cost per kilowatt went up too hmmmm...)

              ...and those are only the bills that I've had since the start of July and they total an extra $30+ a week. I'm guessing there are penty more to come as everyone tries to grab a few extra dollars to cover their costs or because they can.

              It's a stupid tax that does nothing for the environment, instead it just pushes money around. I would rather they added 1% GST and then used it to build cleaner power sources and electric fuel stations in competiton to existing... but the truth is if they had a wad of extra dollars they would just fritter it away on handouts to voters in marginal seats.

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              • #8
                Let's face it, consumers are happy because they have less tax so they are not going to go up in arms about the cost to local producers. Costs goes up for locally produced so they buy imported and at the same time have a bit more money to spare due to the reduced tax, thank you very much. Things like local services such as electricity, waste etc are the ones that are safe as they do not compete with imports.
                The idea that the carbon tax is supposed to be pushed all the way down to the consumer is naive. Some industries just cannot afford to increase their prices due to the heavy competition against imported goods. We then choose to absorb these costs and find smarter ways to offset, pushing the workers for more and more productivity, reduced profitability etc. Having to purchase cardboard boxes locally is one of the few things left that we purchase locally, now with the increase that are being enforced we are seriously looking at importing flat packed cardboard from overseas...that's just crazy!
                Sea freight containers of cardboard of all things!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Andy View Post
                  It's a stupid tax that does nothing for the environment, instead it just pushes money around. I would rather they added 1% GST and then used it to build cleaner power sources and electric fuel stations in competiton to existing... but the truth is if they had a wad of extra dollars they would just fritter it away on handouts to voters in marginal seats.
                  Certainly agree that the implementation of this tax/trading scheme (which is what is supposed to develop into) has been a total mess, and that the tax is presently levied at a stupid level. I think it's going a bit far to say that it does nothing for the environment......just a question of whether the small amount that it does achieve is worth the pain (and obviously a lot of people think it is not). With respect to cardboard boxes, would this be the industry in which the 2 major local players got caught fixing prices (to the detriment of local businesses and consumers)?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
                    With respect to cardboard boxes, would this be the industry in which the 2 major local players got caught fixing prices (to the detriment of local businesses and consumers)?
                    There really aren't that many cardboard manufacturers so it's not hard to guess. The government watchdogs are keeping a very close eye on them and the cardboard ppl have used a third party accounting firm to ensure their numbers are correct as they are fully aware of the consequences. I am certainly not too concerned about the cardboard industry as these guys are pushing 100% of this cost to the next tier manufacturer/producers. It is at this second or third level that struggles to offset or forward the increase to the retailers due to the competitive nature. The retailers will be presenting two similar products, one without carbon tax and one with carbon tax...consumer wins either way because they are cashed up and free to make a choice, local producers (the people who sell to the retailers) lose by way of sales and or profitability. The writing was already on the wall, it's just now been put in bold lettering and fluro highlighted.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
                      ...I think it's going a bit far to say that it does nothing for the environment....
                      You are right, nothing was a bit harsh, but if they were serious about the environment fuel would have been very high on the list and the offsets from that could have gone into better (or maybe free) public transport but it would be political sucicide to touch fuel and their "working party" would have thought that selling a tax on "the top 200 fat-cats" was a much easier sell to the masses.

                      With respect to cardboard boxes, would this be the industry in which the 2 major local players got caught fixing prices (to the detriment of local businesses and consumers)?
                      No, I get all mine custom made by a small local manufacturer but there is every chance that their raw material (flat sheet cardboard) comes from the majors but I don't know.

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                      • #12
                        I read an article about 2 weeks bag in the Weeklytimes, were wood carters in Melb were selling out and 1T of redgum was costing $320..... Wood fire installation is booming....... Good to see the carbon tax is having an effect....... I went out last weekend with brother inlaw and old man, 3 chainsaws and 12T of 'free' wood and carbon tax free.... Is the tax having the effect it was introduced for? Maybe for industry it is but for the general public I am yet to make my decision on the matter. People adapt to save coins and with access to free firewood - CO2 emissions in households might sky rocket. Something to ponder.

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                        • #13
                          I don't pretend to know much about this whole topic but have a couple of observations from the point of view of the "average uninformed Joe".
                          I thought Kevin Rudd was on the right track (pre-GFC) with his long-term plan to try to achieve some incremental gains based on a global concensus (developed countries only - the developing countries like China and India and probably Russia were never going to buy it in my lifetime)
                          I thought the sensible thing would have been to have shelved the whole thing for a decade due to the GFC.
                          The present governments determined stance seemed a bit pointless given Australia's tiny contribution to the environmental problem.
                          There was a feature in the weekend Courier Mail that purported to demonstrate that the Carbon Tax was negatively impacting on businesses. In fact the "survey" on which the article was based was little more than a very limited opinion poll of a couple of hundred businesses about whether they supported the Carbon Tax, what they thought of the government, and whether they thought the tax MIGHT negatively impact on them in the future. Dishonest and misleading journalism. It seems that some businesses are already claiming the tax has impacted on them but cannot show any evidence of this. It seems likely that there WILL be an impact but it is misleading to present 'opinion' (or crystal ball-gazing) as fact.
                          There is no doubt in my mind that some businesses will use the Carbon Tax to explain a whole range of problems and difficulties that they are suffering as a result of the GFC and probably as a justification to increase prices. Whilst I am sympathetic to businesses struggling to cope with what has been thrown at them in the last 3 years, it's important to 'keep it real'.
                          I am most intrigued as to whether the current Opposition will repeal it all when they win the next election.
                          (Mods - if this content is too political just delete it)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A simplistic view:

                            A Carbon tax, a Mining Tax, what next?
                            How about:
                            Green's Tax (If you do not subscribe to the Greens then you will be taxed)
                            Farming Tax (we cannot have the farmer's make too much money)
                            Non luxury car Tax ( we are taxing the luxury cars, we should tax the others too)
                            And so on.........

                            The premise of the GST was to simplify our Tax system. It was also supposed to get rid of a lot of taxes, that unfortunately stayed. Less Taxes, the less government waste in administering it. Accurately, and I mean accurately, review our Tax system and compare it properly to other relevant countries.
                            You will be surprised at our level of taxation.

                            Why not a push for simplification? Or do we need to create more govt jobs??

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Andy View Post
                              It's a stupid tax that does nothing for the environment, instead it just pushes money around.
                              I believe a key to Government is to appear like you are doing a lot, whilst actually doing very little. So this tax fits their purpose well.
                              If you do a lot, you will do a lot wrong (or at least a lot which can be criticised publicly) and you bare too much responsibility. However, the people must think you are working hard for them, so you cannot appear to be doing little. Call me cynical, but I've been in too many meetings when I worked for Government where the focus of the meeting was 'How do we best create an impression that we are doing..." rather than actually doing it and doing it well.

                              "Optimism is a lack of information" - sorry, I forget who I'm quoting now.

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