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How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

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  • How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

    OK Some of you may have seen my other posts about this machine of mine.
    After my last post, I thought what the heck, why not have a go? At worst, it will only cost me a new filter...

    So... The problem -


    The dual wall crema system - under side. One tiny little hole that they expect will enhance the espresso shot. Time to remove it - so up to the shed I go. Out with the... ANGLE GRINDER!
    Yes, but very carefully, just enough to take away the underside to the point that I can see the separation of metal. Then with a lump of wood as a hammer, and an old knife, gently tap the knife into the seam to lift off the bottom layer.
    Then a touch up with the file and it looks an absolute treat - an engineering masterpiece - or so I thought!

    Back to the coffee machine and experimenting with grind, tamping pressure, and I actually made a shot that had excellent crema! But the pour was a bit short, and my pucks look like this...


    So I back the grind off a bit and use a bit more tamping pressure. And I unscrew the plastic thingy from the bottom of the group handle. 10 seconds into my next shot, BANG!!



    I thought, What the f...
    What on earth could have caused that??

    It seems the dual wall filter is made as two pieces and no welder...
    The bottom piece that I ground off was there to hold the top filter in - now that I had removed it, there was nothing to hold the filter bit into the rest of the basket.

    If I only had a spot welder...
    Alas, I do not. So I try to centre-punch all around the edge, but that didnt work because it is too flimsy. So I try "panel beating" around the edge to seal the filter back into the basket. The result?


    So I am up for a new basket and I shall try again...

    I think I will buy 2. One so I can keep the original dual wall, and another that I can do this to

    This way, I will leave a lip of metal from the base, which will hold the filter in.
    I think I will use something less brutal than an angle grinder, too.

    Now to hide this dual basket until I have bought a replacement... And to make coffees with the single basket for now.

  • #2
    Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

    tasadam...

    Nasty, very nasty

    The problem with modifying a filter like this (with a separate insert) is the huge force trying to force it out....

    Assuming a 50 mm ( 2 inch) basket diameter.... and 9 bar pressure.... the total surface area at the bottom of the basket is about 3 square inches.... 1 bar is 14 lb per square inch so 9 bar would be 3 * 14 * 9 (very approximately) or about 380 lbs - back to metric - over 170 kg!!!!

    Sorry about the imperial - I just know it better :

    You will need to leave quite a large lip to retain 170 kg or it will just force its way out!!!

    Are you sure you cant get a normal basket (possibly from a different brand) which will fit?

    EDIT: by the way if your filter is larger than 50mm those figures are even worse.... and many vibe pump machines run 11 bar or even higher.... even worse still

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

      "To boldly go where no man has gone before."

      Look on the bright side tasadam.
      Now we all know.

      I had a close look at those baskets the othjer day at my sisters place.
      No way you could tell thats how they were made.

      Youve saved some other poor soul from doing the same in future.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

        Originally posted by JavaB link=1168768543/0#1 date=1168769835
        tasadam...
        Are you sure you cant get a normal basket (possibly from a different brand) which will fit?
        I did the research.
        I emailed Greg Pullman wanting to buy a filter and tamper but he was unsure whether a basket from Marzocco would fit.
        I did an extensive hunt and found this
        http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/251878#251878
        (same basket in mine as the machine they talk of here)
        So I gave up and decided to do what had been done to a different brand that I saw here somewhere....

        I reckon I will give it another go, leaving a lip as indicated, and getting it spot welded all round - you will see from the photo of the 2 separated parts that there is plenty of metal there.
        That should do it.

        Thanks for the maths - that explains the Bang! And the mess...
        I suppose I was lucky I didnt bust anything...
        I was pressing a plunger once, and the filter in it went sideways, the whole pot went up my arm... A nasty burn, that one!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

          tasadam

          Some baskets (like the Solis I had) have a solid inner basket (takes the pressure) and an add on second one below..... you can cut that out but you still have the strength of the inner basket....

          When I wanted a non pressurised basket for the Solis (non standard size) I went along to the local coffee machine supply/repair place - old basket in hand.... In a couple of minutes the storeman re-appeared with perfect replacement double and single baskets for $12 each (as far as I can recall the cost)... so it can be done! I think they were from a saeco pressurised system.... but the saeco had the pin hole restriction on a baffle in the pf rather than in the second layer of the double basket.

          Leave a very large lip on the main basket.... there is a lot of pressure trying to force the inner out - spot welding wont be all that strong either but would help.... thats why filter baskets are ALWAYS stamped out of a single piece of stainless steel - to resist the tremendous pressure on them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

            Wont the entire perimeter need to be welded to stop leakage/channelling?

            Otherwise, whats to stop the coffee, grounds and all, coming out of this comparatively large space?

            --Robusto

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

              Well I went on an excursion today. A local engineering place steered me to a sheet metal place. They had a spot welder there, so they put about 10 spot welds around the cup to join the thing back together.

              I then went to buy a replacement basket with dual wall... the local agent had one in stock - sold a double basket to me for $10.90 (supposed to be $12.50 but didnt want to take a $50 note)
              And he threw in a single basket as well...
              Really glad to have a spare "genuine" (as supplied) basket - the wife doesnt know the butchery and hacking that Ive been up to. I had to use the single basket for her coffee this morning and got away with it.

              Then home again and up to the shed and got the file on to the repaired basket. Tidied it up nicely.

              There is no leakage or channeling as the two pieces in photos 4 and 5 above fit together very tightly - I had to use large round of dowel to hammer it back in - really tight. Then after my centre punching as visible in photo 6, and the spot welds, it sealed up really well.

              So... The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, so to speak. So after testing it with a normal grind, I made a too-fine grind, packed it in to fill the basket and tamped it in really well.
              Then into the machine, turn on and stand back in case photo 3 wants to repeat itself.
              The pump groaned for a while and one or two very black drops came through, but no leakage and no bang.

              Gave everything a good wash and made a few shots to try - for now I will say "acceptable".

              Looking forward to now having the chance to produce "real" crema - I did get crema but nothing like the Italian style of being able to balance a teaspoon of sugar on top... That is something I will need a lot of practice and experimenting to achieve - and of course some fresh beans for the Rocky...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                Too late now as it appears your idea of repairing has worked.

                But for future debate, to get around the problem you discovered, would it not be sufficient to drill out the single hole to a diameter approximating that of a single spout? I guess about 5mm.

                The basket would then be almost entirely intact so no problem with blowout and the only potential problem I see is with cleaning.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                  Tasadam,

                  sorry to post this the day after youve gone and bought a new basket - your Breville looks to have identical baskets to the Sunbeams (all bar the 6910) - in that case, rather than breaking out the powertools, theres some Krups non-pressurised baskets which will apparently fit (Quite a few older posts on CS had info about them - Ive been meaning to get some for a while but havent got around to it yet).

                  The Krups part numbers for these are 0907163 (double) and 0925592 (single) - I dont know what state youre in, but they seem to be readily available at most of the Sunbeam/Breville/Krups repair places here in Melbourne (they all seem to do all 3 brands) - from memory they run at about 10-12 bucks each.

                  Hope that helps

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                    Originally posted by Thundergod link=1168768543/0#7 date=1168868718
                    Too late now as it appears your idea of repairing has worked.

                    But for future debate, to get around the problem you discovered, would it not be sufficient to drill out the single hole to a diameter approximating that of a single spout? I guess about 5mm.

                    The basket would then be almost entirely intact so no problem with blowout and the only potential problem I see is with cleaning.

                    TG, that may well work - but first I reckon the "crema enhancer" would have to come out to relieve that bit of extra pressure too (I reckon the OP did that - was that the plastic thingy you took out?)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                      Drilling out the centre of the bottom basket would work very well.... and prevent any issues.... the small hole in the bottom is the only crema enhancement feature.

                      The black plastic insert is a thermal insulator (and an area for stale coffee oils to collect and nasties to breed) but doesnt have any crema enhancement properties. It is used to prevent a cold pf (assuming it hasnt been pre-heated) from reducing the shot temperature and affecting the flavour.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                        oops - sorry JavaB, youre right..... I must have got confused by buzzwords and marketing hype.

                        From now on Ill just refer to it as a dreck storer....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                          Originally posted by varanid99 link=1168768543/0#8 date=1168869156
                          Tasadam,

                          sorry to post this the day after youve gone and bought a new basket - your Breville looks to have identical baskets to the Sunbeams (all bar the 6910) - in that case, rather than breaking out the powertools, theres some Krups non-pressurised baskets which will apparently fit (Quite a few older posts on CS had info about them - Ive been meaning to get some for a while but havent got around to it yet).

                          The Krups part numbers for these are 0907163 (double) and 0925592 (single) - I dont know what state youre in, but they seem to be readily available at most of the Sunbeam/Breville/Krups repair places here in Melbourne (they all seem to do all 3 brands) - from memory they run at about 10-12 bucks each.

                          Hope that helps
                          Thanks for all that.
                          Well, as the name suggests, Im in Tassie. Our local agent only had these Breville baskets. I dont mind running to $12. I also dont mind a bit for postage.

                          Could I be so kind as to ask for one or two of these suppliers in Melbourne that you would recommend - the demand for this sort of thing in Tassie is a bit short.

                          I could then call them and have a chat - indeed a friend of mine has a Krups model 965 that needs new baskets and he has been quoted over $20 each...
                          So I could sort that out for him while Im at it, and make the postage worthwhile.
                          I am willing to buy a proper basket as, well, lets face it, the one I modified is a bit dodgy...  [smiley=wink.gif]

                          Drilling could work, but that the two layers are very close so to get a big enough hole, you would be getting very close to the filter layer. As it is, I touched on it with the grinder but only stuffed a couple of holes.

                          The plastic thingy in the bottom is as was said, just to collect the stale dregs, no crema enhancing feature there.
                          I decided to keep it there - could help to support the bottom of the modified basket, not sure whether it touches or not but it would be close, and the portafilter (what I have always called a group handle) is very deep when you take it out - also it then has 3 holes (screw hole). Heating isnt an issue as I always preheat it by doing a false pour - an unloaded basket for 10 or 15 seconds to make sure everythings hot.

                          Thanks to all. Its been fun.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                            Originally posted by tasadam link=1168768543/0#12 date=1168896678

                            Could I be so kind as to ask for one or two of these suppliers in Melbourne that you would recommend - the demand for this sort of thing in Tassie is a bit short.
                            Ill PM this to you in a sec (as soon as I find it)


                            Originally posted by tasadam link=1168768543/0#12 date=1168896678

                            also it then has 3 holes (screw hole).
                            Yep, I found that if I just removed it, everything spurted out of the middle hole at a great rate - so I just plugged it with a little nut & bolt.....the heat retention has never been a problem without it, because I preheat it too

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How to modify Breville 800ES filter... NOT!

                              Time for an update on how Im going with this modded basket that I made.
                              Things are going well. The spot welds havent failed and I am getting some pretty reasonable coffees. Of course, it takes practice and I have been getting a bit of that.
                              I have found the one biggest aspect that changed the results for the better since getting this machine - I got some FRESHLY roasted beans.
                              What a sweet, pleasant coffee that makes!
                              Im still experimenting with grind and tamp pressure to get the extraction right and to try to get a good and lasting crema. I have had some success here, but as I dont want to waste much, I have been doing things daily.
                              Have just gone from 13 to 14 on the Rocky, and using just a little more grind and some more tamp pressure.

                              As things are working well, and as I have read it is hard to find an alternate filter that fits well, I have decided to stick with this filter for now, and will one day get around to making another one - now that I have the knowledge, I will do it differently and be able to do it neater.

                              It isnt that hard to do and for the record, what I would do to modify a double filter for this machine is -

                              1. Make sure you have a spare filter so if you stuff up, you can still make coffee.

                              2. Take the filter to a sheet metal workshop and get it spot-welded right round the basket side wall - where the inner lip is - you need to do this because it isnt attached and when you grind the base off, you will suffer the same fate as what I did on my first attempt.
                              Not that it needs welded right round, mine has been spotted in about 10 places and is holding firm. Not complaining - cost $2 to get spot welded.
                              The welder was concerned the spot welder would melt a hole straight through the filter, it was a risk I was prepared to take (nothing to lose from where I was at). Seemed to work okay, didnt look like it wanted to make a hole right through.

                              3. Time for the angle grinder - SLOWLY! If I were to do this again, I would use the angle grinder again as I do not own a dremil or anything else that would do the job apart from a file, and a file would be too darn slow.
                              Grind bit by bit, nice and steady, just a touch - let it cool. That will stop it from discolouring due to heat, as mine did. Not that it will affect the result apart from its appearance, but as I said, if I were to do it again...
                              As soon as you can see the wafer of layers, dig at it with a knife and lever it up. Once you get that far, you can see how much grinding is needed.

                              4. Tidy up with a file, wash, sterilize and use.

                              I suppose the only thing you need to be careful about is grinding too deep and cutting away the filter base that you have just had welded in place. If that happens, time to start again.

                              I am talking about the double basket here, I havent bothered with the single basket. I suppose I might, since I have a spare one. If I do, I will post the how-to once done.

                              Cheers!

                              Comment

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