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Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Roma

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  • #16
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Originally posted by BobT link=1205812762/0#8 date=1206257544
    Franco

    Ive modified the De’Longhi grinder 8 notches finer. The dial now baulks at what would be 6½ notches finer which is probably metal to metal. However, I’m finally getting a grind that challenges the Café Roma pump. The intensity has certainly increased. However, like you I can’t get the 20-25sec. Depending on tamping , it either doesn’t come out at all or spurts out in about 5-10sec. Perhaps a non-pressurised basked would help. I’m not sure why it would but it’s worth a try. I look forward to seeing how you get on with your search. It beats me how that pump can push out so much coffee through that one tiny hole so quick.

    I agree to keeping it to <30ml. It certainly reduces the bitterness and acidity.

    Regarding the temperature, I froth my milk and find that I need to flush to reduce the temperature below boiling before expressing the coffee otherwise the coffee is quite dead. It’s a bit hit or miss. Reliable temperature control would be great. I guess that’s where the big bucks come into it.

    Bob
    I thought I would do the tweek to the De Longhi tonight and wow. Does it ever increase the intensity. I can taste things in the coffee I have never tasted before. There are definitely more chocolates and caramels and that sweetness is really coming out.

    Im beginning to understand what people mean when they say the grinder is so important. I fear that the De Longhi is not going to be adjustable enough to get the best out of the coffee and the machine.


    Ciao
    F.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

      I agree. However, before the De Longhi gets chucked, I’d like to try it with an unpressurised filter basket if and when I manage to get one.

      Bob

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

        hi
        ask the local breville bloke for a ESP 4 / 51 or ESP2 / 41 filter 1-2 cup. same filter

        the krups filter is 1/2mm smaller dia than the breville, so bit loose
        we use these for the Atomics as well

        graham

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

          Thanks fix

          Seems like its fixed ;D

          Sorry my twisted mind.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

            Hi, From a newbie, for newbies.

            The Coffee: Start with pre-ground coffee specifically ground for espresso machines - leave the grinding until you can draw a decent espresso from your machine. "Segafredo Espresso Casa per macchina espresso" works great with the Cafe Roma. (Youre unlikely to find this coffee in the local supermarkets but you can buy it online. Its worth it.)

            Tamping: Tamp very firmly (ignore the Breville instructions as youll end up with a watery mess with virtually no crema) - tamp, knock gently, tamp + twist. Youll need a heaped Cafe Roma spoonful of coffee for the single-cup portafilter (I havent perfected the double and I dont intend to as it doesnt hold quite enough coffee for the perfect double draw IMHO). I prefer to have approximately 1mm space between the top of the firmly tamped coffee and the top of the single-cup portafilter - for a stronger pour with an easy knock-out, tamp it right to the top. The firm tamp is the key to a great crema.

            Drawing the espresso: Put the basket on the pre-heated machine group head, and place your pre-heated cup underneath it. Turn your dial all the way to the espresso cup marking. Look carefully at the crema colour - youre looking for a mid-tan colour, not dark brown (too acidic still), and definitely not light tan (bitter). I stop drawing the coffee just as the light tan begins to show in the centre of the cup - about the size of a 5 cent piece. Turn off the dial, and put your coffee on top of the machine on the heating plate while you foam the milk.

            Note: As the Breville doesnt give us any control over its bar pressure, and were fairly new at tamping properly, its best to learn to draw each cup of coffee at its optimal point. This means we look for crema colour, not the perfect length of time (20-25 seconds) with the perfect quantity (30ml). I cant get the perfect length of time with this machine, but I can get the perfect quantity and fabulous taste by stopping just after the optimal mid-tan colour finishes. It usually takes me around 15-18 seconds to draw the coffee.

            Another note: I always flush the group head briefly into a spare cup prior to the first draw, and always flush the steamer briefly immediately before foaming a new jug of milk.

            Foaming milk: Im new to this site but Im sure there are great instructions about foaming techniques. It is possible to create great Latte foam with the Cafe Roma. Its a matter of technique, a bit of practise and dedicated concentration. Always start with fresh milk for each foam (you need the unheated protein in it for successful foam creation).

            Enjoy.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

              Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1205812762/15#19 date=1211067262
              Hi, From a newbie, for newbies.

              The Coffee: Start with pre-ground coffee specifically ground for espresso machines - leave the grinding until you can draw a decent espresso from your machine. "Segafredo Espresso Casa per macchina espresso" works great with the Cafe Roma. (Youre unlikely to find this coffee in the local supermarkets but you can buy it online. Its worth it.)....
              Oh really? :...Did I miss a joke somewhere??  :-?

              I suspect that you will struggle to find anything other than passionate disagreement with your comments here...
              [*]Buy the best grinder you can possibly afford[*]Dont waste your time or money on imported and/or supermarket coffee. Its all stale rubbish- including the above mentioned crud.[*]Buy only freshly roasted from local roasters with true integrity[*]Grind fresh to order[*]Learn good skills from and listen to those who intimately understand the espresso process- and I can assure you they wont be using preground of any brand..

              Good luck

              2mcm

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                Intellidepth (and readers!!)

                Its not April 1 is it?????

                You will never.... never ever...... ) I say again NEVER - get a decent coffee from stale preground (especially leaving it even longer to go more stale???????) ....

                Ground coffee beans are stale within 3 minutes of grinding..... so unless you live next to a specialist roaster and run home and make your coffee..... forget it....

                However if you want to make something which is on par with the cheapest instant coffee..... go right ahead and use this stale cr@p preground supermarket stuff..... and preground for espresso machines????.... there is no such thing!!! Every machine will need a slightly different grind to get best results..... needing to be changed as the beans age.... even as the humidity changes..... There might be lables on the bags "for espresso machines"..... but one size doesnt fit all!!!

                As 2mcm says above.... get a quality grinder, grind FRESHLY roasted beans as you require them..... otherwise just buy the generic brand instant coffee.... flavour will be just as good..... no need for a machine either so you will save heaps!!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                  Intellidepth thanks for trying to help but I think youve gone about it the wrong way.
                  This is Coffee Snobs.
                  We dont accept mediocre coffee let alone anything less.

                  While we do understand that not everyone can afford expensive equipment and have to get the best out of what they do have, we encourage them to strive for the best their equipment can deliver.
                  Part of that encouragement means not accepting things like pre-ground supermarket coffee.

                  If you use freshly ground, freshly roasted beans, then a Cafe Roma should be capable of making the best coffee it is capable of.
                  One thing a Cafe Roma and my expensive machine have in common, is if you put cr@p coffee in cr@p coffee will come out.

                  Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1205812762/15#19 date=1211067262
                  leave the grinding until you can draw a decent espresso from your machine.
                  Youll never grind if thats the case.

                  Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1205812762/15#19 date=1211067262
                  Enjoy
                  Impossible with pre-ground.  :

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                    OK, got it.

                    I agree with the whole fresh grind concept. Im reading keenly the threads on grind precision in order to purchase the best grinder I can possibly afford in a few months and have begun venturing into roasting facilities.

                    As mentioned, Im a newbie, attempting to give my personal experience with a basic entry-level machine, playing around with better quality pre-ground stuff than I can buy at my local supermarket (I can hear your groans... amen). After viewing the previous posts in this thread I thought I had something to offer to other new starters of this particular machine. Im guessing that many owners of this type of machine start off with the supermarket version of "coffee" while theyre discovering how to use it.

                    If a new owner attempts to use the machine like Breville suggest, theyll achieve constant dud shots. Even the pictures on the Breville box are scary - big bubble dry foam. At least I have something drinkable that rivals the local (and obviously in your opinion, mis-named) coffee houses.

                    My apologies to the experts - Im right at the beginning of my coffee snobs journey. Perhaps Ill just lurk from now on. Im pleased to note that the critiquing was aimed at my next fix factor - the fresh grind. Thanks for steering me in the right direction. Ill get there... step by step.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                      Intellidepth,

                      There are far too many people/organisations who promote the use of stale (supermarket) coffee - including Choice and equipment manufacturers - and that makes us see red!!!!

                      Your machine - and pretty well every other one (regardless of price) can make a pretty damn good coffee... given the right ingredients and technique. Its just a pity that many never get to try their machine with real coffee and give up because the machine cant make a decent coffee. There must be heaps of coffee machines in the back of cupboards because of this very reason......

                      But if the owners were told what a difference freshly ground coffee makes.... and tried it..... they would be amazed what their machine can produce.... You dont have to spend megabucks on equipment (like some of us do :) but you do have to use the right ingredients..... Even my La Cimbali will produce neigh on undrinkable coffee from stale supermarket preground.

                      Once you have tried fresh coffee for yourself - you too will be amazed!!

                      Good luck on your journey.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                        Im glad you took the criticism well.

                        Dont lurk, youll learn more by participating and I hope newbs with Cafe Romas will get something out of this thread from both your experience and our clarifications.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                          Hi Intellidepth

                          Thanks for the post, have to agree with most of what you posted, the Café Roma is able to draw the best out of most of the supermarket blends that I used too. I particularly enjoyed using Illy. I have to vouch for an improvement in taste with fresh ground coffee though, it really makes a difference; it’s like a second birth.

                          I used the strategy of pulling the cup early even though it was no where near the 25-30 recommended pour time. I was lucky to get 10-14 seconds most times before it would begin to blond.

                          I have not used the Roma for some time now; I moved to a semi commercial machine and can now appreciate better the importance of technique in making coffee, I am still learning; when will it end.

                          In hindsight I have to disagree with the purists bagging the pressurised pf and baskets though.

                          With out going into a snob wank, to my mind it’s a fifty/fifty throw, as to which is better because each has its benefits and each has its pitfalls.

                          For me it really is about choosing something by balancing all the information, not taking an ideological approach.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                            Stale coffee cant be better now matter how you dress it up (pressurised baskets and fake crema).

                            You may be able to get the best out of supermarket coffee with a Cafe Roma but that best is not within cooee of what you can get with fresh beans.

                            Here endeth the lesson.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                              Dont disagree with anything you said Thundergod, but I am interested to get to know better why people do not like pressurised baskets.

                              Dont understand why the crema from pressurised pfs is considered less than that which comes from non pressurised ones when taste and mouth feel is the reason we drink coffee.

                              If that is the case, then the argument should be which tastes better, shots from pressurised or non pressurised pfs.

                              Interested to hear what people think.

                              F.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                                Franco,

                                The oils and volatiles are what gives coffee its amazing taste.... these are extracted by the pressure and temperature of the water..... the carbon dioxide present in the bean is also extracted..... which is why the beans must be fresh as the carbon dioxide and the volatiles will have "evaporated" and the oils become oxidised (rancid) as the coffee ages...

                                Now the pressure can be applied from restricting the flow of water either by the mass of coffee grinds after appropriate tamping or by a very small hole in the basket - a "pressurised basket".... these will both work assuming beans are of equal quality (fresh!!!)....

                                But as they exit the basket, with a normal basket there is a smooth exit.... the crema is left in tact. With a pressurised basket it squirts out..... and is mixed with air!!! - the enemy of coffee- and the creama is largely destroyed (no longer volatiles, oils and carbon dioxide in a homogeneous mix).....

                                There is a noticeable difference in taste when comparing a naked extraction and one with a portafilter with normal base..... the naked has a better taste.... and that is with just the interaction of the base of the PF...... so what do you think a fine jet hitting the base at high velocity will do????

                                Imagine a bottle of coke left to go flat..... and instead of replacing the carbon dioxide you whisk air into the coke.... will it taste like coke.... nope.... it wont have the mouthfeel that coke has...... even pouring fresh coke back and forward from glass to glass will cause it to degas and alter the taste and the mouthfeel - and that is the same with espresso.

                                So why do they make pressurised PFs? Well if you buy supermarket cr@p coffee..... or leave fresh coffee lying about for a while - there is little volatiles and carbon dioxide left (the oils being less than ideal - but still there).... so under pressure from just the puck - no crema and poor mouthfeel..... however if you pressure cook the grinds in the pressurised basket..... and squirt it through a small hole at high velocity..... it picks up air (bad, bad, bad) and that froths up the coffee making it look like crema..... hence the term "crema enhancing"..... but it is false crema and if you appreciate good coffee - it will taste like cr@p!!!! The other advantage is that the pressure is generated by the tiny hole - so tamping isnt critical...... the lazy approach to making espresso!!!

                                Its not about being a purist..... its about having espresso produced how it is designed to be.... using the natural process with as little interference as possible....

                                However if the taste of espresso from a pressurised basket appeals to you, then thats fine...... but I wont be drinking it- thats for sure!!!

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