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Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Roma

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  • #31
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Originally posted by Franco link=1205812762/15#28 date=1211375890
    Dont disagree with anything you said Thundergod, but I am interested to get to know better why people do not like pressurised baskets.

    Dont understand why the crema from pressurised pfs is considered less than that which comes from non pressurised ones when taste and mouth feel is the reason we  drink coffee.

    If that is the case, then the argument should be which tastes better, shots from pressurised or non pressurised pfs.

    Interested to hear what people think.

    F.
    Beat me JavaB.

    Franco,

    Answering you in my own words, the pressurised baskets produce fake crema.
    The baskets are designed to produce a coffee that looks like the real thing.

    To me its like any other dodgy practice used to make bad food look good.

    You wouldnt stand for the meat you buy being tarted up to look fresh so why would you accept stale coffee tricked up to look fresh?

    In the case of meat, many of the old tricks are now illegal.
    It may not be illegal to use pressurised baskets to fool the public but to me its just as wrong.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

      This is a little off topic, but I think may be useful for some people.

      Since Ive started reading Coffeesnobs, I wondered just how much difference using a non-pressurised basket would make, and whether my grinder would be up to the task. I very much doubted that it was, and that, because of this, I would notice any difference. In fact I thought things could very well go backwards.

      FYI Im using a Sunbeam EM4800C (Cafe Crema) with a Breville BCG450 grinder, a generic 51mm tamper and freshly roasted (within a week) Columbian beans from the Jindebah Cafe in the ACT.

      Today, curiosity got the better of me, and I called up a Sunbeam service agent to see if I could get hold of either the Krups unpressurised baskets and group head seal, or the Breville Bar Italia unpressurised basket. The lady was really not very helpful at all, saying they had no stock, had no idea when they would get any, and that she couldnt give me the parts unless I owned the machine they were for. So I gave up.

      Then I was in the Good Guys buying an electric blanket (chilly Canberra winters), and spotted a store special on ... you guessed it ... the Breville Bar Italias. Man this is going to be an expensive basket I thought, then bought one. Of course, at this stage I had no idea whether it would work well with my grinder at all.

      Anyway, I rinsed off the 1 - 2 cup basket, popped it into my Sunbeam, ground some coffee, and its brilliant! On the Brevilles finest grind, Im getting the most beautiful pours, with tons of thick, rich, glossy crema. And the taste is fantastic, definitely better than with the pressurised baskets.

      So if you have this grinder, and arent sure if its worth getting an unpressurised basket, all I can say is, It is.

      Now what on earth am I going to do with a Breville Bar Italia minus the 1 - 2 cup filter? Im thinking eBay.

      PS I tried some preground supermarket coffee I had lying around in the pantry, and the results were ... terrible. So if you dont use fresh beans ground for espresso, I wouldnt bother with the unpressurised baskets.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

        Originally posted by porschemad911 link=1205812762/30#31 date=1211524197
        she couldnt give me the parts unless I owned the machine they were for.
        WTF?

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        • #34
          Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

          Yes, thats what I was tempted to quietly think to myself.

          Haha, she also asked me if I called up yesterday, so I guess theres a few people in Canberra trying to get hold of unpressurised baskets!

          I was thinking of getting rid of the black plastic thing in the bottom of the portafilter. Does anyone have any ideas how to plug up the centre hole that the screw sat in safely and easily?

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

            Its called a graeme.

            What screw?

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            • #36
              Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

              It goes up from the bottom in the centre, and screws into the black plastic insert that pokes down through the two holes. The hole in the metal isnt threaded, the screw goes straight into the plastic.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                Ahh...one of those type.

                Someone else will have to answer that one for you.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                  Thanks all for your replies, but I would like to still play the devil’s advocate if I could.

                  First a story to illustrate my point. I love gnocchi. (Gnocchi is an Italian dish made from potato dumplings with a sauce mixed in like pasta.) My mother has always made them from scratch cooking, mashing the potatoes and then binding it into dough which is then shaped into the dumplings and cooked like pasta.

                  Recently my sister started to use Deb (instant potato mash out of a packet) to make the potato dough and I thought this was outrageous (fake gnocchi), so she challenged me to be able to tell the difference. After all was said and done, I could never tell when she had made them from Deb. Much to my annoyance I have to say.

                  My argument is this; you cannot compare pressurised pfs and non pressurised pf, clearly the shots they produce are different. However, if you’re using the exact same bean, the best grind for each pf type, a naked basket, etc, etc then you will get two different shots which have their own inherent characteristics and one will taste like A and one will taste like B. One will highlight certain things in the bean and one will highlight other things.

                  It’s a bit like mocha coffee and drip, their different, and to be enjoyed in and of themselves.

                  While I too consider Deb gnocchi to be fake gnocchi, they still taste ok, and I have to admit, can be made with a lot less fuss.

                  What do people think?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                    Franco,

                    Ill line up a bottle of Grange Hermitage (if I could afford it!!) and a Chateau Cardboard elcheapo cask red.....

                    They are both made from grapes....
                    They are both fermented in much the same way....
                    They are both wines.....

                    But the taste difference..... OH BOY!!!! and no-one would say that the Chateau Cardboard tastes better.....

                    Someone who hasnt ever tasted much good wine would probably say the Chateau Cardboard tastes pretty good.... but give it to anyone with a developed wine palate - and they would in, all likelihood, spit it out!!!

                    And to my coffee palate (not well developed compared to many).... the extract from a pressurised basket is the Chateau Cardboard of espresso!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                      Hi Java

                      Yes they are both made from grapes but the taste difference is because they are different grapes, non the less, my argument is that does not make one bad or good.

                      I too cannot afford Grange, but thats my point, there are tradeoffs and each has its good and bad points.

                      Using your example, what we are comparing is more like the same grape being fermented in French oak compared a steel vat.

                      They are different, the wine from the oak would be full of subtitles and complexities that we would pay a premium for but unlucky for me I usually end up getting the $25 bottle which is invariably out of the vat.

                      I remember a wine judge commenting on a sweet white wine once saying, while I dislike the taste of sweet whites, this one is very well made......., and went on to describe its brightness, its fruitiness its complexity, etc etc.

                      In short, coffee from pressurised pf is different so you should not compare it to non pressurised pfs. However pressurised pf coffee is more convenient to make and has its own tastes which can be appreciated just like non pressurised pf coffee.

                      Over to you.

                      Ciao
                      F.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                        It goes up from the bottom in the centre, and screws into the black plastic insert that pokes down through the two holes. The hole in the metal isnt threaded, the screw goes straight into the plastic.
                        Go to your local hardware store and buy a bolt and nut to fit. Or you could use food grade silver solder to plug the hole. Hope this helps.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                          Hi, a question about tamping and unpressurised vs pressurised baskets in the context of the Roma...

                          a) At the moment Im finding Im tamping really firmly, with a nearly full pressurised single basket to get the best extraction Im able to get thus far... By going to an unpressurised with this seemingly fast flowing machine (?15 bar?), will it actually slow down the water flow so the length of time/coffee complexity starts getting nearer the ideal? Or am I on the wrong tack?

                          And another question which might be answered elsewhere:

                          b) what is the difference in coffee complexity/taste etc between a short extraction to the same blonding point as a longer (ideal) extraction? (ie what am I missing??? )

                          Thanks.

                          Off topic: BTW, my current grinders of choice to purchase are the Compak K3 Touch/ECA KS Doserless but I cant seem to find threads on their throw.

                          EDIT: Im tamping 11g into the single basket.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                            I gave up trying to get a non-pressurised basket so I drilled out my 2 cup basket. I used a 1.5mm bit and drilled out the pin-hole on the underside. For good measure I also drilled out the 8 square indentations surrounding the pin-hole. That should substantially reduce the pressurised effect.

                            Results are significantly improved but not great. I find that no matter how fine I grind and how hard I tamp, I still get the 30ml in 10 to 15sec. Leaving it to extract any longer results in the coffee being undrinkably bitter. The next step is to see if there is a way of reducing the pump pressure.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                              Bob,

                              What grinder are you using? If your grinder produces lots of fines (uneven grind size) - which is quite common with the cheaper grinders - these fines are over extracted and produce a bitter espresso. A Sunbeam 0450 grinder is about the lowest quality you can use..... an Iberital is a LOT better!

                              With pressurised baskets you can use a coarser grind..... but "normal" baskets will show up the inadequacy of your grinder as it does have to produce a finer (and very even) grind. You also need to tamp more effectively as any area of channelling in the puck will produce bitterness.

                              A non pressurised basket will produce a far better extraction.... but is far more dependent on grinder and technique to achieve that.

                              I doubt adjusting the pump pressure will have much effect.....

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

                                Thanks for the advice. I have a DeLonghi grinder. I think its destined for the bin.

                                "A non pressurised basket will produce a far better extraction.... but is far more dependent on grinder and technique to achieve that" You are dead right. Im getting a lot of variability. Its quite amasing how it can go from beautiful to undrinkable so easy.

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