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Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Roma

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  • Intellidepth
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Hi Amy, mine did. It needs a higher temp for steam than it does to brew.

    Leave a comment:


  • amy_arabica
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    okay; just a random cafe roma question.
    whenever i turn on the steam wand the heating light comes on. is it supposed to do that?

    Leave a comment:


  • stuartgrant
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Hi Secksy,

    Not sure, I dont use the Krups baskets! I have Breville unpressurised baskets that came with my old Bar Italia model.

    However, given the complex (over-)engineering thats gone into the standard pressurised baskets that come with the CR, Id imagine the Krups basket would need the seal to be of any use... not certain on that though. In any case, the seal is the cheaper half of the two!

    Cheers
    Stuart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Secksy
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Originally posted by stuartgrant link=1205812762/80#81 date=1217313595
    - a Krups one [part #0907163 for the basket, #620342 for the seal.
    GDay Stuart

    You mention the krups seal above as opposed to whats already in the machine.  How does this seal help? 8-)

    Thanks
    Andrew

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Youre most welcome "cb"....

    Yep, once you are able to acquire a decent grinder a whole new world of great coffee will await you.. Youll never touch pre-ground again

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • roastednut
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Thanks Mal and Intelli. I was only using about 1/2 kg of pressure. No wonder it came out like water in a short time.
    I used freshly ground coffee from a local coffee shop, ground in front of me.
    My next purchase will be a grinder. There are so many brands available and for a huge range in price.
    Ill read the forum notes on grinders (several times) before I commit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1205812762/80#86 date=1221464155
    Hi Coffeeberry, approximately 15kg (dig out the bathroom scales).
    Yep, between 7.5 and 15Kg is fine if you are using standard baskets (non-pressurised) but if your baskets are the pressurised type then a tamping force of 3-5Kg would be plenty since it is the basket that creates the back-pressure, not the coffee puck. All youre really trying to do is make sure there are no voids or loosely packed regions of coffee with pressurised baskets.

    The main thing with tamping, is to practice like "Id" has suggested above, on a set of bathroom scales in order to find a method of applying the tamp that results in a consistently applied force within the ranges nominated above. The other variable that you need to sort out is the "Dose". Basically, you need to be able to come up with a method that allows you to dose the same amount of coffee in the basket each and every time. Mostly, you want to reach a point that after tamping, the top of the puck (before pulling the shot) just kisses the shower-screen. Consistent dosing of the basket is probably the most difficult aspect of brewing delicious espresso but once learnt, all the other variables are easier to control. Once you can do all this, you just need to vary the grind setting (more applicable with standard baskets) to control the rate of the espresso pour within the ideal framework of 30/60ml for a Single/Double in a time of 25-30 seconds.

    All the best,
    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Intellidepth
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Hi Coffeeberry, approximately 15kg (dig out the bathroom scales).

    What grinder do you have? Or did a roaster grind your coffee for you?

    Leave a comment:


  • roastednut
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    I have a question on tamping the coffee for the Cafe Roma. My wife bought me one for this fathers day and I had a good play with it this last weekend, with some freshly ground coffee.
    My question is how much pressure do I need to apply to the basket to properly tamp the coffee? Im getting a single shot in about 10 seconds. From what Ive read on this forum, should I be getting more like 20+ seconds for a single shot?
    Im totally new to espresso coffee (making) so Im reading everything I can and then trying it out at home.
    Regards
    Craig

    Leave a comment:


  • Intellidepth
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Hi anawana..... welcome to CoffeeSnobs!

    It is very likely that the double-walled basket has fines (coffee dust) trapped between the layers, and the first shot helps to loosen them, and the second is flowing better more like it should be. Soak the basket in water in between uses and see if that helps. Try ordering another basket from a Breville service centre - will cost you about $12, and see if it works better for every shot - then youll know for sure. Otherwise, no idea (p.s. Im a previous user of a C.R.).

    Leave a comment:


  • antman
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Not really answering the last question, but my Sunbeam was going great until the seal blew out. It looked like mice had nibbled half the lip. Sunbeam sent me out a new one as it was still under warranty. However Im now getting the problems described here of either blowing or gushing. I use a single shot basket with the bottom drilled which had been working beautifully. I had a chat to Sunbeam today and it seems there can be a variation in the seal thickness which maybe explains peoples different experiences with different machines. Mine doesnt feel as tight now with this new filter. Im thinking Ill get a Krups basket with the Krups seal and see how it goes.

    Leave a comment:


  • anawanahuanana
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Hi guys. Long time reader, first time poster. Frankly Im a bit worried about putting my head out of the trench with this question, but Im feeling brave.....

    Before I start, I know I need to use freshly ground beans to get a decent result. I am saving up for a good quality grinder right now. My wife (who is the coffee drinker in the house) is quite happy using preground coffee at the moment in our Cafe Roma. Im sure this is because she has never had anything better but there you go.... Anyway, to put it simply everytime, and I mean everytime, I draw a shot using the single shot basket that came with the machine the first draw is a watery, almost black mess. I then bang out the puck (which isnt so much a puck as a collection of sloppy grounds) and remake using exactly the same quantity of coffee and same pressure tamp. Second draw is always good to go. Why is this? I leave the machine warming for ages before using it. The second puck always seems to be more solid too.

    I know that I am using bad coffee, but even so, the result should still be braodly consistant shouldnt it, even if it does consistantly taste like ****!

    Thanks in advance for any advice...

    Leave a comment:


  • stuartgrant
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Learning to make better coffee with a Café Roma:

    [This is partly a summary of this thread, and partly a description of my moderate success with the Café Roma.]

    What you will need:
    - 1 x Breville Café Roma (:P) - which I would recommend as a sub-$200 "stop-gap" type machine for those on a budget (me!).
    - 1 x quality burr grinder (Sunbeam EM0450/0480, Iberital Challenge, Ascaso i-mini, Rancilio Rocky - anything upwards of those is good too!).
    - Freshly roasted coffee
    - 1 x quality tamper, 49 or 51mm (I have an Ace tamper).
    - 1 x unpressurised double filter basket, either:
           - the original basket with the floor drilled/ground out (see this thread),
           - the older Breville baskets [part #ESP4/51 or ESP2/41],
           - a Krups one [part #0907163 for the basket, #620342 for the seal].


    Using the pressurised basket: if you cant/dont want to use a different/modified filter basket, youll probably still be able to get good coffee (for a while - check this thread to see what builds up in a pressurised basket over time...). However, you will be limited in your grind level. If its too fine, youll block the basket. That means youll need to set your grinder on the minimum safe setting and then adjust the dose and tamp to get the right extraction time. Further, I found that using the pressurised basket means that I need to shorten the extraction time (from 25-30 to 15-20 seconds) or else a burnt taste will start to develop. This doesnt seem to happen as much with the unpressurised basket, even though its probably to do with the machines lack of temperature stability, not the basket per se.



    Grind, dose and tamp:
    I only use the double basket, as the single is designed slightly differently (true for both pressurised and unpressurised). I use 12-14g for a single cup, and 19-20g for two cups. This is a higher dose per cup than many use, but I reason that the CR needs a little extra help.

    The grind can be quite fine when youre using the unpressurised basket, but still not as fine as I use on my friends Silvia (a significant step up in machine quality, there). Bit pointless trying to describe a grinder setting, but those guidelines should help.

    As for tamping, I only received mine yesterday, but Id feel confident tamping at "normal" pressure with the CR (many recommend 10-15kg).

    Over all, as long as your CR seals properly against the unpressurised filter basket (mine didnt at first, and went back to have the group head seal replaced), you can use your CR as you would a normal machine - except with a slightly coarser grind, perhaps.

    The main complicating factor is temperature stability...



    Temperature Stability/Surfing:
    While high-end machines take 45 minutes to properly warm up, the CR takes about 5. Is this an advantage? No. What it means is that there is very little thermal mass (ie. "stuff", such as thick metal parts, that will hold a lot of heat) in the machine, which makes it very difficult for the CR to hold a stable temperature. Why does this matter? Coffee extraction should occur at about 90-94ºC. Higher than this and youll extract tannins and polyphenols which give your drink a bitter/burnt flavour. Lower than this and (dont know the chemistry here) youll get a sour shot - with less of the coffees natural sugars. Really high-end machines will remain stable to within 0.5ºC while brewing. The Café Roma probably fluctuates 5-10ºC within the 30 seconds youre pulling a shot. Essentially, theres not a lot you can do about this. The machine was really designed to pull a shot in 10-12 seconds, during which time there is a relatively minor temperature fluctuation. I have found that even when I start the shot at the highest point of the temp cycle (ie. just after steaming then flushing), the temperature heating light will come back on towards the end of the shot. That is, while the shot might start at 96ºC, it will end at, say, 88ºC (these figures are guesses).

    Nevertheless, play around with starting your shots at different points of the cycle. There may be a sweet spot. I dont think Ive found it yet (though my coffee tastes good, I reckon).

    You may also want to play with how long you extract for. Some of my longer shots (30seconds or more) didnt taste as good as some of the shorter ones (~20 seconds). I would guess that this has to do with the temperature stability issue (ie. shorter shots dont last long enough for the mid-shot heating to ruin the flavour).



    Ive had fun with this thread. Hope it proves useful for anyone using a CR.
    Cheers,
    Stuart.

    Leave a comment:


  • stuartgrant
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Updated update:

    Just packed the double pressurised basket full (18g), tamped lightly (~5kg?) and managed to get 40mL in 30 seconds. Sounded ugly (pump struggling, dual-wall basket made squirting noises...), but it worked!

    The real test, however, was/will be to see if the basket was blocked afterwards. Well, it almost was; I ran water through the grouphead after the shot, then put the PF with the basket in and ran water through it. It seemed to be struggling, but unblocked itself about 5 seconds in. Success!


    So I got a double ristretto in 30 seconds. So to get espressi (~60mL), Ill probably need to dial the grinder to "Silvia +4 or +5" (see last post for definitions :P). This will assure that the basket doesnt get blocked. Hooray!

    Cheers
    Stuart.

    Leave a comment:


  • stuartgrant
    replied
    Re: Learning to make better coffee with a Cafe Rom

    Hi all, time for an update.

    Ive had the fixed machine back for 6 days now, so Ive had time to experiment. This was accelerated by having 8 for dinner last night - always good to have an excuse to pull shot after shot all night!


    Observations (in random order):
    1) Since the dual-wall crema "enhancer" tends to get plugged if you use too fine a grind, I figure that the IDEAL situation is to get the grind as fine as possible without plugging it, then adjust the speed of the pour by up-dosing.

    2) I have achieved this "ideal" grind - its currently at a setting of "Bar Italia -7" or "Silvia +3", where the digit is the number of full revolutions finer (-) or coarser (+) than an average setting for the machine in question.

    3) Using this setting, along with a 12-13g dose and a light (~5kg?) tamp, gives me 30mL in 12-15 seconds which tastes great. No better than a 10s pour, mind you, but it feels better!

    4) Since I can fit 20g coffee in the basket, I would expect to be able to get 50mL from 20g in 20-25 seconds (should be adequate for two 7oz flatties). Havent tried this yet.

    5) The only possible limiting factor for achieving even this modest victory will be whether or not the seal holds up. I havent had a blow-out since I got it back, but the seal hasnt been pushed hard yet.

    6) My old group head seal was definitely faulty. Or else I ruined its ability to seal by using the unpressurised baskets (which didnt seal adequately, allowing water and coffee grounds up into the seal = failure). This makes me nervous about trying the unpressurised baskets with the new seal.

    7) The local Breville repair centre is asking $32.70 for a spare double (pressurised) basket for me to drill/grind out. Ha ha. Good one, guys. Thats precisely three times retail price. Nice mark-up.

    8) Since my tamper is currently a glass which happens to (almost) fit the filter basket, Im not in a hurry to go unpressurised. Im certain that using the unpressurised baskets will require a real tamper, and since the CR is an interim machine with smaller than usual baskets, Im hesitant to fork out $$ for a tamper that wont fit any upgrades.


    So, in summary: Im making progress while treading the fine line between slowing down the pours and exploding my CR. Havent nailed it yet, but am hopeful.

    Cheers
    Stuart.

    Leave a comment:

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