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PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

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  • PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    I have a Saeco Via Venezia and a Rocky w/Doser and can make decent enough lattes and cappuccinos but still have the odd burnt/bitter one that has to be thrown away.. Im saving for a Used Silvia + PID when the right one comes along..

    Decided to put a PID into the Saeco to see if it would help, but didnt wish to outlay the $200 for a kit that did brew only... I did some research, found the wiring diagrams and ordered a Sestos D1S-VR-220 (Similar in function to Auber SYL-2352) with SSR and K-type thermocouple for $42... it arrived after 2 weeks.

    Tonight a friend and I traced the wiring of the Saeco, confirmed against a diagram Id found, understood how it worked, where the active and neutral circuits went etc. Saeco switches on the neutral line...

    We wired in the PID kit on the bench (kitchen table); active and neutral from the terminal block for the time being; thermocouple wedged next to the overtemp stat; SSR wired to PID with correct polarity; SSR connected in place of the brew stat.

    First we fired up the machine with the SSR disconnected from the brew stat, let it get to temp, observed the PID switch off the SSR once PV = SV. Turned all off, disconnected from power, wired in the SSR in place of the brew stat.

    Set the SV to 93.3, it proceeded to get to temp, overshoot by a few degrees then it held it around 93.2-4 for a minute. Satisfied we unplugged everything and took a break.

    I wanted to browse the alarm functions of the Sestos to see if it can be used as per the Skene Design page to regulate the steam temperature by passing 12v through the alarm contacts at the push of the Steam switch.... we proceeded to switch on power to the Saeco without switching the machine itself on (PID was still getting power from terminal block, before the switch)...

    The Sestos fired up a quick self test, then proceeded to flash both SV and PV displays "orAL".. followed by smoke rising from within the PID... we shut it down, disconnected everything and found a burnt resistor.... off to jaycar tomorrow and if the seller wont replace it or doesnt want it sent back Ill solder in the replacement to see if can be made to work (not that Id trust it but enough to get everything wired and working for a new PID unit)...

    We cannot figure out anything wrong with our wiring, perhaps you guys can pick holes in what we did?

    Perhaps its just a cheap PID biting the dust? (weve seen quality equipment fizzle... it happens...)

    Im thinking a quick blow fuse should be wired in between the Saeco switch and PID, what amperage would be suitable?

    Its a bit concerning as certainly if this happened whilst unattended itd probably burn out; hopefully setting off the RCD or safety on that circuit before starting a fire.

    I will be persisting with replacing the broken PID... I know I didnt want to spend $200... Im upto $60 atm... but I think Ill buy a slightly more reputable PID... Looking at the Autonics TK4S-14CN as its got multiple set points and avoids having to use the alarm for steam... or an Auber/Fuji/Watlow.... but then if I do that I should have just forked over the coin or thrown the PID SaecoVV idea in the bin, but this has been worthwhile in knowing how the machines work

  • #2
    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Why dont you post a schematic of how you wired it up? Bit hard to be 100% clear on what you did.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

      Originally posted by 7473786F69747C251D0 link=1335452934/0#0 date=1335452934
      I wanted to browse the alarm functions of the Sestos to see if it can be used as per the Skene Design page to regulate the steam temperature by passing 12v through the alarm contacts at the push of the Steam switch.... we proceeded to switch on power to the Saeco without switching the machine itself on (PID was still getting power from terminal block, before the switch)...
      What was your 12V source for the alarm contact?  Also, are you sure the alarm contacts wants 12V or is it a volt-free contact that just needs to be closed to ground?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

        Sorry guys, Ill try to clarify.

        Id not yet gotten to the stage of putting in place a 12v source for the alarm contact.. I was trying to first determine if the alarm functions would operate as needed before looking further into wiring in the 12v source; I had planned to use a 240v-12v transformer for LED down lights.

        PID Manual (not much of a manual btw!): is available by googling sestos d1s, its the first result.

        Wiring as follows:
        Terminal 3 had K-type TC negative.
        Terminal 4 had K-type TC positive.
        Terminal 6 had SSR Input negative.
        Terminal 8 had SSR Input positive.
        Terminals 9 & 10 had 240v Active from terminal block.

        SSR was wired in place of the Brew thermostat.

        At the time of the incident the machine itself was switched off, we turned on the power point and thus power was given to the PID via terminal block, it immediately displayed the error and then the smoke escaped shortly thereafter.

        According to a net search that error related to thermocouple wiring and if the thermocouple checks out then its an error with the controller.

        Thanks for your help.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

          instead of using alarm contacts, remove the alarm relay , and use the 5v for relay to drive the SSR via the steam switch, thats what i did with my gaggia.

          this way you dont need an external supply for relay contacts

          but the alarm set point need to be inverted. alarm is on and goes off when alarm temp reached.

          my pid is set to 107c and my alarm is 43c (43c above 107c)

          when i close steam switch it will connect to ssr and increase temp to 150 and then alarm will turn off, when it goes below 150 alarm will turn on.

          when steam switch off it disconnects from ssr and normal pid back in use.








          Comment


          • #6
            Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

            Originally posted by 46414A5D5B464E172F0 link=1335452934/3#3 date=1335486406
            Id not yet gotten to the stage of putting in place a 12v source for the alarm contact
            without looking at the wiring, this is better than I thought, since I thought you changed something and then it fizzed

            (just realised my last post was my 1000th!)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

              Hmmm, I think you might need one of these to assist you on the journey to repair your PID


              of course, I dont know where you can get them, I havent dealt with the stuff in years... ;D

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                Hehehe, awesome!

                Im just going to solder in a new resistor tonight and see if it works... its not like a massive outlay if the thing goes completely belly up.

                Firepower;

                Can you please explain how you wired up your alarm steam temp control?

                I cannot see a way to trigger the alarm externally via a switch with this unit, so thats why I was going with the external transformer (ended up picking up little a 9v unit from jaycar just in case today).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                  Im using the same PID controller, but to drive a single SSR for brewing only. Just finished the project, but so far very happy with the unit. Any chance there could have been a short to the thermocouple which cooked the resistor?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                    Originally posted by 09263D2A3F20382A3D4F0 link=1335452934/4#4 date=1335504538
                    instead of using alarm contacts, remove the alarm relay , and use the 5v for relay to drive the SSR via the steam switch, thats what i did with my gaggia.

                    this way you dont need an external supply for relay contacts

                    but the alarm set point need to be inverted.  alarm is on and goes off when alarm temp reached.

                    my pid is set to 107c and my alarm is 43c (43c above 107c)

                    when i close steam switch it will connect to ssr and increase temp to 150 and then alarm will turn off, when it goes below 150 alarm will turn on.

                    when steam switch off it disconnects from ssr and normal pid back in use.

                    Mate, Just wondering what your wiring configuration for your steam function is and more so how is it programmed in the menu.

                    Ive had the sestos pid sitting around for a couple of weeks, now i finally have the time to set it up.

                    Also is it necessary to run the pid with a 2nd switch. I was thinking of running it in parallel on the power switch of my gaggia.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                      Think I understand, after re-reading, you are sending the alarm output 5v VIA the steam switch and then into the SSR.

                      I assume youre using diodes on the wire from steam switch to SSR and from PID to SSR?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                        Update:

                        Wired in the replacement resistor and the PID is back to being operational.

                        Were currently working out the alarm setting, essentially I want it to not display the warning/alarm alternating with the Set Value... I just want the discreet alarm light lit until steam temp is reached, so during idle/brew operation the PID will be pulsing the OUT light and the AL1 will be on constantly...

                        I looked at removing the relay, cant really be bothered so Im just going to use a transformer mounted in the jiffy box or under the boiler plate in the little plastic compartment (this is probably where the SSR will reside if it doesnt get too hot, otherwise Ill have to mount it to metal somewhere with some thermal paste.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                          In normal operation when switched on power flows through brew stat until it reaches 96deg and breaks the connection. The steam switch provides the ability to feed power directly into the steam stat and the boiler will be switched off at 127deg.

                          Given this we ended up simply bypassing it and connecting the SSR between the input wire of the brew stat and the output wire of the steam stat which connects directly to the boiler.

                          The neutral connection via the overtemp cutoff stat has been retained, this breaks connection at 170deg.

                          The default Alarm Parameter setting of 0 has the high alarm break the connection between the COM and NC (Normally Closed) terminals once the PV = high temp + hysteresis. We also see the display of SV alternating between SV and the Alarm that was triggered....

                          Taking a leaf out of the Auber manual whereby you need to enable the E parameter in the alarm parameter calculation; we set the parameter to 16 and were greeted with the behaviour of the 0 setting with the display remaining locked to SV. Only the AL1 light comes on once the alarm is triggered (steam temp reached). Perfect.

                          Have yet to be able to test this as one of the diodes we got appears to be dead... so another trip to jaycar is on the cards for tomorrow (Ive been living on instant...)

                          In truth Ive probably spent close to $100 with all the stuffing around and its cost me another $100 in buying stuff at Jaycar that I wouldnt have bought had I not gone in there! Anyway, the experience has been rewarding so far, a replacement PID will be sent and Ill toss up which one to use in the future... probably use the replacement and junk this one or keep it in the shed for an outdoors project.

                          Will post back once its all finished and operationally tested/tuned.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                            All finished, time to tune. Also need to calibrate the sensor against a known goodun.

                            Steam temp alarm has been set back to 120... lets just say that as it approached 130 on the PID display the group head let out a gush of steam... the stock steam stat clicks off at 109deg on the PID display.... anyway.

                            Autotune has it sitting about 2deg above the set point so will have to work this out myself.

                            Firepower, I wouldnt mind knowing the Sestos settings for your Gaggia as a rough guide. Will be playing around with it tomorrow night.

                            Cheers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

                              With my PID, i found that the autotune setting was really acurate, when i turn the machine on, it would reach the set temp and not overshoot and just hold at the right temp.
                              but the problem was, when i started brewing the coffee, the temp would dip down like 10 degrees before it realised that it needs to have the element on full bore to keep up.
                              In the end i googled what settings other people were using and made some small changes to those. and its working pretty well now, only thing is it does overshoot about 10 degrees initially, but a short flush fixes that pretty quick.

                              also, my machine is a thermoblock machine, so you might not find you have this problem at all. just thought id throw in my 2c

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