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  • Dumb question re: 3 phase power

    Greetings

    My question is "do all commercial machines (at least 2 group) require 3 phase power?"
    The reason I ask as I looked at a venue today (office) with normal household power and wondered what sort of machine that could handle big numbers run off a normal power supply :-[
    Thats 2 questions, ok Im allowed a numb day.

    Thanks heaps !

    Chris

  • #2
    Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

    Nope.

    But most outlets in aus are 10 amp.
    In general a 2grp will need 15 amp.
    So different plug, fuse on the main board, and maybe rewiring.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

      you should check out the fuse box at the venue

      there might be some 15amps lines already in place

      worth a look anyway

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

        15A doesnt necessarily mean 3 phase. You can have single phase 15A power, which I believe is what commercial machines usually run on.

        Im sure someone much more knowledgeable than I am will come along soon and explain it better.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

          Originally posted by 3635272723352D540 link=1254203214/1#1 date=1254204699
          Nope.

          But most outlets in aus are 10 amp.
          In general a 2grp will need 15 amp.
          So different plug, fuse on the main board, and maybe rewiring.
          And

          Originally posted by 39353C313138540 link=1254203214/2#2 date=1254205639
          you should check out the fuse box at the venue

          there might be some 15amps lines already in place

          worth a look anyway
          Agree but with caution...

          Not all power boards are equal

          Same as not all Coffee machines...

          1: Get a Electrician to confirm the board and its rating... Older boards can be a bit on teh light side and or have longer runs than ideal.

          2: Then confirm teh actual wiring and GPO...

          I have seen damage where some one put a 15A GPO on a 10A cct and then up graded teh fuse... Problem is the main wiring is not rated at 15A and with other power being drawn from that line it generated an electrical fire.. I understand the court case was very interesting as to who was found to be at fault...



          My last place I had set up was with a 15A cct but used 20A wiring to give some margin and less voltage drop... Lathe and Welder..

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

            Thanks team, the guy said a sunbed had been run off one of them so I guess they are pretty hungry?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

              Youll find the majority of commercial multi-group espresso machines are single phase only (because 3-phase is not always easy to get and is more expensive to install).

              The machines rate from 15A for an average 2group up to 25A for a decent 3-group. Some of the higher-spec hi-volume units can run the larger element setup (6KW), so they are best run on a 32A supply, given the pump and other current draws on power.

              The really high-end bean2cup systems placed in Maccas, Hungries and Subways used by people who are not baristas are typically 3-phase, because they have massive grinders, boilers, pumps, etc. that could be running in peak mode at times.

              Some of the high-end grinders like Mazzer Roburs can be purchased as 3-phase units. A 3-phase motor has a *more efficient* starting vector than big single-phase units, can have a slightly different torque characteristic and inevitably tend to last a little bit longer (fewer start/run capacitors to blow-up).

              Almost every machine on the market will have a manufacturers plate or sticker hidden somewhere on the equipment. Even if its written in a foreign language, you will find that the power rating, e.g. 2400W, 3600W, 4500W, etc. will be stamped somewhere and it will give you a clue as to its capacity requirements - just divide the power in watts by the 240V. For some espresso machines, this plate can be found under the drip tray.

              Remember that 15A equipment is not protected by a 15A circuit-breaker, it needs something with a bit of "spike" headroom, e.g. 20 or 25A, so its not blowing the breaker under peak loads.

              Getting back to your original question - you may find there could have been a little bit of "smoke and mirrors" there at that venue you noticed. Its possible the machines could have been "de-watted" by either replacing the standard element with a lower capacity unit that can run on 10A, e.g. 2400W, or some element setups have a *double" run with a "series/parrallel" bridge via a copper link. Removing the link "halves" the element output (only half the element is alive) meaning it takes a long time to heat up and slower recovery if used for hot water or lots steam wand use.

              If you want a decent commercial-grade machine to run off standard 10A GPOs, look for a single-group unit running something between a 4-8 litre boiler and you may find it just scrapes in under the 10A threshold (sometimes with grinder plugged into a different circuit, depending upon the size of the grinder).

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

                Great answer ccc2, even I can understand it.
                Im on it, Cheers !

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Dumb question 3 phase power

                  Originally posted by 41414110220 link=1254203214/6#6 date=1254396147
                  Youll find the majority of commercial multi-group espresso machines are single phase only (because 3-phase is not always easy to get and is more expensive to install).

                  The machines rate from 15A for an average 2group up to 25A for a decent 3-group. Some of the higher-spec hi-volume units can run the larger element setup (6KW), so they are best run on a 32A supply, given the pump and other current draws on power.

                  The really high-end bean2cup systems placed in Maccas, Hungries and Subways used by people who are not baristas are typically 3-phase, because they have massive grinders, boilers, pumps, etc. that could be running in peak mode at times.

                  Some of the high-end grinders like Mazzer Roburs can be purchased as 3-phase units. A 3-phase motor has a *more efficient* starting vector than big single-phase units, can have a slightly different torque characteristic and inevitably tend to last a little bit longer (fewer start/run capacitors to blow-up).

                  Almost every machine on the market will have a manufacturers plate or sticker hidden somewhere on the equipment. Even if its written in a foreign language, you will find that the power rating, e.g. 2400W, 3600W, 4500W, etc. will be stamped somewhere and it will give you a clue as to its capacity requirements - just divide the power in watts by the 240V. For some espresso machines, this plate can be found under the drip tray.

                  Remember that 15A equipment is not protected by a 15A circuit-breaker, it needs something with a bit of "spike" headroom, e.g. 20 or 25A, so its not blowing the breaker under peak loads.

                  Getting back to your original question - you may find there could have been a little bit of "smoke and mirrors" there at that venue you noticed. Its possible the machines could have been "de-watted" by either replacing the standard element with a lower capacity unit that can run on 10A, e.g. 2400W, or some element setups have a *double" run with a "series/parrallel" bridge via a copper link. Removing the link "halves" the element output (only half the element is alive) meaning it takes a long time to heat up and slower recovery if used for hot water or lots steam wand use.

                  If you want a decent commercial-grade machine to run off standard 10A GPOs, look for a single-group unit running something between a 4-8 litre boiler and you may find it just scrapes in under the 10A threshold (sometimes with grinder plugged into a different circuit, depending upon the size of the grinder).
                  What can I say... Enough detail, but general enough that most should be able to get the picture..

                  If I could I would add rep points for this post...

                  Comment

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