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Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

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  • #16
    Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

    Frabel,

    When the probe is already at the lowest position and the water level is too high, there appear to be only the options I have mentioned.

    Regards
    Glenn

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    • #17
      Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

      fair enough - but it does sound like there is something else wrong with your machine then, as the depth of the probe should control it.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

        I am not having a go, but do you think if you made the probe longer that the water would be lower?

        From your past posts I am thinking that you think the gicar control runs the pump for X secs longer then stops after the probe makes contact with the water. Like some sort of "timer"

        If this is correct why dont you make the probe longer? Then you could see if the water stops filling a bit lower before you mess with the GICAR.

        your thoughts on this idea?
        Leeham

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        • #19
          Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

          Hi Frabel,

          I totally agree with you. I do not believe I need to (or ever would) resort to the options I mentioned but I merely stated a theoretical position rather than a practical one. Sorry if I confused people. I was thinking aloud which probably was unwise.

          Nevertheless the setting up of the water inlet pressure reduction valve is critical in getting the water level correct. As you allude to, if the mains pressure has not changed, etc, and the water level is incorrect, there is a specific fault which needs to be rectified.

          Leeham,

          Similarly putting in a longer water probe is merely masking the real fault. As stated I think our friend has a faulty water inlet valve or inlet expansion valve leak.

          Regards
          Glenn

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

            Originally posted by 1725273621201B072B33440 link=1254876739/13#13 date=1255500107
            In my case it was the expansion valve

            I dont get how an expansion valve (over pressure valvue on boiler?) could be a cause of excess water. Maybe this is hiding the true cause, which likely a bad seal on the autofill solenoid - or is this what you are referring to as a water inlet valve? You can take these apart and check the condition of the seal - take off the coil, then undo the 4 screws. then if comes apart and you can see the condition.

            Also reading over some of the eariler stuff:

            Originally posted by 1725273621201B072B33440 link=1254876739/10#10 date=1254891708
            In each case when it refilled after draining water from the group head

            this is a heat exchanger machine - water from the group is separate to the boiler water. So not sure why it would refill after running water through the group.

            Id be interested to know wha thte water level is after emptying the boiler, and first refill. Does it stop at a lower level, and gradually fill up from there?

            good luck, and hope you sort it out Glenn.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

              Hi Frabel,

              I am not talking about the expansion valve (over-pressure valve) on the top of the boiler. If you look at the water inlet solenoid you will find an expansion valve just before it. (It is at right angles to the solenoid valve). It has a copper pipe to the boiler. This is the one that was leaking on my machine.

              Regards
              Glenn

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

                Hi Frabel,

                PS Re "this is a heat exchanger machine - water from the group is separate to the boiler water."

                Once again you are perfectly correct. I did not realise that at the time but am slowly learning by falling into one manhole after another!

                Thanks for your observations and feedback.

                Regards
                Glenn

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

                  Originally posted by 1E2C2E3F2829120E223A4D0 link=1254876739/18#18 date=1255517346

                  Leeham,

                  Similarly putting in a longer water probe is merely masking the real fault.  As stated I think our friend has a faulty water inlet valve or inlet expansion valve leak.

                  Regards
                  Glenn
                  Glenn i was talking about your machine...... I did not mean to extend the probe forever. Just to test your theroy about the gicar reading the water level then filling to long.

                  I would have done it via having the machine cold, lowering the probe further into an empty boiler somehow and testing the theory.

                  good luck with your repair,

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

                    [QUOTE=5163617067665D416D75020 link=1254876739/10#10 date=1254891708]
                    I noticed as it was coming up to pressure that some water came out of the over pressure valve on top of the boiler and a little out of the group solenoid valve.  I know nothing about these machines but I would have thought that this should not happen when it is not even at operating pressure.  Can you please comment on this?  

                    Hi Glenn
                    The reason I thought we had the same fault with our machines is because of this comment you made about your machine above. However, from your other comments it sounds like you have a slow filling problem, which as you have noted, is probably fixed by replacing orings and servicing the autofill solenoid.

                    I had a different problem as the autofill solenoid was not shutting off when the correct fill height was reached. After inspecting the auto fill box I noticed the relay contacts were fried.  With the help of an electronics expert, we replaced the 7.5A relay (In the last post I thought it was a 5A due to dodgy printing on its side) with a 10A equivalent.  "Finder" brand relay P/N 44.62.7.024.4000. $12.90AU plus delivery.

                    http://australia.rs-online.com/mobile/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=253409 4

                    But we also replaced the electrolytic capacitors (4 in total) as a precaution as these things tend to dry out over time. (a few bucks each) All in all about $25 worth of parts which is not bad especially when you consider a new auto fill box is $200 and still has the lower rated relay.  I have attached some pics.  Because we replaced the capacitors as well I cannot tell you exactly which part fixed it, suffice it to say, it is fixed now. It fills until it comes in contact with the level probe and shuts off after a short delay.  Level is exactly the same every time now.
                    Cheers Pier











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                    • #25
                      Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

                      Hi Pier,

                      Thanks for the feedback. Great result!

                      Regards
                      Glenn

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

                        Ahh, brings back memories of an autofil problem i had on the M27 a few months ago. The gicar board and components look quite similar.

                        In my case the overilling was caused by a grounding wire to the boiler which I had inadvertantly left off during reassembly, after pulling everything apart for a descale....

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Rancilio S26 -Boiler Water Level

                          Postscript -

                          I am reminded of the words of Dr Karl Kruszelnicki when he said that the internet is the greatest source of misinformation. From another forum I gleaned that the valve before the water inlet solenoid was an expansion valve. This lead me on a wild goose chase and I made some incorrect assumptions and statements. So I here eating humble pie setting the record straight.

                          By analysing the Rancilio S26 electrical circuit and hydraulics, it is evident that this valve just prior to the water inlet solenoid is in fact a simple non-return valve. When the coffee switch is switched on, water flows from the mains via the non-return valve into the heat exchanger in the middle of the boiler and thence through the group solenoid valve and finally through the group head into the coffee cup! Unless there was a heat exchanger/ boiler leak it is clearly impossible for any malfunction in this hydraulic circuit to have any affect on the water level in the boiler.

                          Therefore the water level in the boiler is affected by

                          (1) the operation of the GICAR
                          (2) the water inlet solenoid
                          (3) the state and height setting of the water sensor probe
                          (4) the electrical earth at the boiler

                          After replacing the sick electrolytic capacitors in the GICAR, the water level in my machine was lapping the underside of the head. Far too high!

                          On one occasion I found with the machine unplugged, water was streaming out of the anti-suction valve. When I disconnected the copper pipe on the outlet side of the water inlet solenoid, water was pouring out of it when clearly it should not have been. I dismantled it and cleaned it and so far so good but if it hiccoughs again I will replace it. One important thing to do, if the boiler over-fills and after you have found and rectified the true cause of the problem, is to remove the ant-suction valve and with a plastic tube syphon water out of the boiler until the water level is below the water sensor probe. It will not function correctly when the water level is far too high. For example the anti-suction valve will act like Mt Vesuvius.

                          In summary it is all fixed for the time being and has been delivering cups of coffee again after such a long illness. I have learnt a lot as I knew absolutely nothing about how it worked prior to this fault. Thanks to those who have provided invaluable feedback.

                          Regards
                          Glenn

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