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Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

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  • Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Hi All,

    wanting to pick your collective brains on what the problem might be.

    As some of you know, I have a cart I take around to some local markets to knock out a few coffees. The machine I got with the cart is an old 2 group Milano, which Im told is a rebranded wega.

    recently Ive been having random cutouts on the pump during a shot. The pump sound stops, the coffee slows to a trickle and the pressure isnt released through the solenoid. It doesnt work for a few minutes afterwards. Meanwhile, we stand nervously grinning at customers who frequently have a frown on their face. It used to happen when we were pumping out the coffees, but now cant stand up to more than a few in a row; except when a technician is troubleshooting of course.

    I had the pump replaced by a technician last week. I had asked for both the pump and motor to be replaced as I didnt suspect the pump to be the problem, but he thought otherwise.

    The question is; should I spring for a new motor? could it simply be the capacitor? or is it likely to be some of the electronics. The problem occurs when using the manual switch and the volumentrics. It also happens on both generator and mains power. The cart itself also has a small caravan pump to simulate mains pressure and that continues working quite happily during these tantrum episodes.

    Thanks everyone,

    -ACog


  • #2
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Neil at Ministry Grounds (up your way) has one exactly the same.

    He may be able to help you out ACog

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

      Originally posted by 585A565E5E50574A390 link=1287205762/0#0 date=1287205762
      but now cant stand up to more than a few in a row; except when a technician is troubleshooting of course.
      Weigh up the cost of a new pump against paying a technician to sit nearby.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

        Originally posted by 60626E6666686F72010 link=1287205762/0#0 date=1287205762
        The question is; should I spring for a new motor? could it simply be the capacitor? or is it likely to be some of the electronics.
        Without seeing the wiring config etc..   A pig in a very long poke  ;D

        I have seen some very creative wiring around SSRs and not only pump but also element control.. A factor here can be cooling along with components getting OLD  


        Pump as well as the START cap would be my last choice ..

        My gut feel is that a component / control is causing the system to cut power and after it cools - your OK for a while.

        Not sure in there is a Current limit / protect cct for the pump but it will be something simple  ;D   You have already stated Mains and Generator and affects all modes... Thus teh common control is CCT OR excess overdraw of current ????

        As ya in a cart, just drop it around and we can have a play ....  Fixed and done in a dash..  Shed is open, just toot when the first coffee is ready and I will be down..

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

          will it do it when no coffee in the Ghandel? (no load on motor)

          and with the new pump its still doing it? as i have seen a buggered pump do this to the lecky motor (stall it)

          is the motor drive shaft loose / bent / bearings stuffed ?

          what about if you remove the motor and pump
          wire it direct to a plug
          ensure you ground the wiring
          hook the water pump up to a bucket of water
          turn it on and off at the wall switch to test

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

            Its not a cooling issue. It did it last week on coffee number 3 for the day. Ive also run it with the side open (lecture me, go on) and a fan blowing on the pump.

            Sorry AM, what is CCT?

            Maheel, when trying to repeat the problem at home, it doesnt seem to happen as often as when Im working the cart. i.e. no customers waiting. Ive used a blind group handle and a rubber disc from my em6910 to simulate strain on the motor.

            AM, would love to bring it around for a play, but a 12 hour drive is a little out of the question the next few weeks.

            CKSYD, thanks, I might check him out.

            TG, Im leaning towards replacing the motor as opposed to hiring a tech to sit there and wait, I guess I want to hear opinions that its unlikely to be anything else.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

              My bad.. cct is short for circuit


              maheel is also on teh same path as me... But harder when the person at the other end is possible unknown ? Binary division. That is split the problem.. On way is to run the pump separably, but that can also introduce / hide problems unless you have good test equipment. A cheep current / power monitor ( little like a double adapter with a power screen - Only a few dollars from Bunnings - Might allow you to detect a sudden current spike / draw and that would then also point to a pump / load problem)

              PS. Heat is not always as you assume... If it has an over current protection on teh motor then depending on how it is set can be an issue. A cap on a cct board can be heat affected and may only need to be powered up but not give a fault for some time...

              This is why Electronic techs LOVE a hard / solid fault. Subtle or intermittent are a PAIN... Long distance and intermittent are 1001% murder... Again with no cct diag to work from I could be 110% out of left field... But still think either a cct board / controller problem or excess current draw.

              In teh old days we would cheat if intermittent and tripping a cct breaker or fuse... USE a solid link ( 4"nail) and then teh sus part would smoke and presto.. In most cases problem found ;D In other cases it was one of - Sorry, beyond economical repair and we made a note to down size teh nail next time

              Thinking of you

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                Originally posted by 383A363E3E30372A590 link=1287205762/0#0 date=1287205762



                The question is; should I spring for a new motor? could it simply be the capacitor? or is it likely to be some of the electronics. The problem occurs when using the manual switch and the volumentrics.
                As you state it happens both on manual and volumetric operation that rules out a electronic problem, As the machine is on a cart I strongly suggest a bad wiring connection caused by vibration during transport.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                  tek,

                  an interesting thought, though the pressurestat continues to operate even when the pump takes a time out, so if it is a faulty connection its almost certainly local to the electricals for the groups. i.e. not the entire machine.

                  AM, a faulty capacitor scares me, because it would be hard to determine and probably a pain to fix. A faulty motor is easy and costs are fixed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                    Faulty Capacitor is easy to fix just replace it very cheap from electrical wholesalers

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                      Originally posted by 33313D35353B3C21520 link=1287205762/8#8 date=1287223800
                      tek,

                      an interesting thought, though the pressurestat continues to operate even when the pump takes a time out, so if it is a faulty connection its almost certainly local to the electricals for the groups. i.e. not the entire machine.

                      AM, a faulty capacitor scares me, because it would be hard to determine and probably a pain to fix. A faulty motor is easy and costs are fixed.
                      When I say cap... I pick on these as they are usually easy to identify.. Like many PC mother boards, most will pop their top when they had dried out etc and thus loss functionality. However there could be other factors involved as well.

                      On a single layer board an easy replacement, but do not get them in the wrong way... BANG !! And a mess to boot. As to place of purchase.. Jacar these days or order from RS or Farnell.


                      If you have a cct / wiring diag I may be able to give a better idea of where the problem might be... bUt with out, it is all close ya eyes and toss a dart.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                        Not good intermittent problems to find

                        Can you trace back from the pump to the control board or box and see if it is a relay to control it or a Solid State device (SSR, Transistor, Triac etc). If it is a relay it is possible that one or more of the points are clagged (technical term) or that with banging the machine around on the trailer damaged it is some way internally making them stick. If so then a change to an SSR instead will remove that mechanical problem.

                        Going to be very hard to get to the bottom of it via the Web :-/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                          Most of the motor capacitors failures Ive seen usually arent related to intermittent faults as described - they are either a blow/pop or open-cct and in many cases they have also taken out the motor as well.

                          As Tek indicated, you may have a connection in the loom that is barely making contact and the vibration is causing this random cut-out. Probability 60%.

                          its an awful type of problem and can be time-consuming to isolate - as AM suggested, you need to have a multi-meter on the pump motor contacts at the exact moment it is stopping to see if its a motor or a control (Gicar) issue - probability of Gicar is close to 40%.

                          The other test you can perform is to run lots of steam or hot water, forcing the boiler to re-fill regularly. If there is a problem with general water pump/motor, it should also be affecting supply to the boiler. The Wega/San Marino/Astoria machines have the boiler sight glass which you can use to help work out how low the boiler gets before it kicks in the auto-fill.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                            Originally posted by 2E2E2E7F4D0 link=1287205763/12#12 date=1287275558
                            Most of the motor capacitors failures Ive seen usually arent related to intermittent faults as described - they are either a blow/pop or open-cct and in many cases they have also taken out the motor as well.
                            Context.. If your talking motor start cap then the above is a fair statement.

                            I am talking about caps etc on the cct board ie, GICAR unit.

                            My gut says Gicar OR sensor as to water level OR excess current.

                            These could be hard component failure OR due to bad connections.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

                              Hi everyone,

                              well a bit of an update. This morning I took the machine plus the entire cart around to a friends place. He has a bit of electrical knowledge and said hed help me out.

                              We got the machine fired up, stuck a multimeter in to the terminals for the motor and started pumping the machine to try and get it to fault. About 5 minutes in and the power went out. Not the same problem. This time the RCD had tripped. Took the multimeter off then turned the power back on. All fine until I used the left hand group and boom. Power out again.

                              It seems my machine has developed a new, possibly related, but probably not, fault where theres an earth leakage.

                              At this point, Im going to put the machine aside and find something else to do the job. Fundamentally its a good machine, its a solid built e61 HX machine which with some TLC could be made to make good shots, but I simply cant afford to throw good money after bad for now.

                              Thanks all for your help, and if you know of anyone selling a decent 2 group machine that runs on 3400 watts or less, Id like to know about it.

                              -ACog

                              Comment

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