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Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

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  • acoggins
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Hi G,

    The outcome of my problem was the motor. I had replaced the capacitor and the problem improved, but didnt go away completely. Ive since replaced the entire motor and given the machine a good thrashing under real circumstances and had no problems.

    -ACog

    Leave a comment:


  • eighthirty
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    meant capacitor

    Leave a comment:


  • eighthirty
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Hey Acog just wondering if you solved this issue as Im having it with my 3 group wega airy. Have already replaced the motor solenoid but didnt fix.

    Was it the motor as I suspect?

    Cheers
    G

    Leave a comment:


  • Mischa
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    knowing how to use a multimeter is always helpful

    Leave a comment:


  • MadRoasters
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    its all good man i will fix it for you

    Leave a comment:


  • acoggins
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    I should probably update this thread for the sake of anyone experiencing similar problems.

    Turns out the earth leakage problem was a dead solenoid as tek correctly suggested. Around $89 from Coffeeparts and 10 minutes work. Safe for anyone with half a brain to replace.

    The random pump cutouts have been suggested to me offline as a dying  capacitor. Around $24 from coffeeparts and even easier than the solenoid to replace. The problem with this issue is it is random so theres no way to know if its resolved yet. *fingers crossed*

    Makes you wonder why a so called reputable espresso repair place couldnt figure it out so easily. From now on Im going to do my own repairs.

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Originally posted by 4E5F513A0 link=1287205763/15#15 date=1287312336
    Alternatively call the Tech who replaced the pump and tell him the pump wasnt the problem, You shouldnt have to pay the full rate if it was misdiagnosed by the tech in the first place.
    Yea... If they replaced the motor, then by law and GMP, let alone duty of care and standard requirements of any electrical repair... Earth leakage should have been checked..

    While it may have passed, if something is getting old etc the test value would have been down a bit and that should have raised a warning flag..

    1M to earth is the basic min, but you should be at 10M or higher.  Once you start getting lower than 5M, it is advisable to start checking to se if it is the elements or something else.  With element disconnected you should be 10 or even 20M plus.  Anything lower would then point to something else at risk.

    Standard practice for any one with a duty of care and an understanding that if they perform work and return to service; they could be held responsible for any nasty outcomes.  Yes,  things could be tested as OK and then fail the next day, but depending on the fault etc an investigator with any real understanding will start to ask hard questions as to what was done and where the relevant paper work might be.  

    For me I have to have in date calibration certificates for all test equipment and document the test results on all service documentation. If an item fails, one has to record the pre and post test results and then the test results of the failed item to ensure all the measurements  make sense.  

    Traceability and risk management. NOTE: Many dont go to this extent but in Health, and where the media love a good story and to point the finger. If you screw up in one small area and something goes wrong... You get hung out to dry and if some one gets killed it get a little messy.

    PS. Try documenting static  ;D  So many report electrical shock, then have to have an echo done and the equipment taken off line.  Many hours of checking and double checking to prove that the machine is safe and some ones frilly underwear and or plastic soles on a carpeted floor OR a very dry environment will often cause static and it can be at extreme values.

    Sorry... Hobby horse again.  A good tec never takes one measurement and never assumes    

    Leave a comment:


  • tek
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    I suggest you keep trying, the group tripping out will most likely be a group solenoid shorting to earth, have your electrician mate disconnect it and try again.

    Alternatively call the Tech who replaced the pump and tell him the pump wasnt the problem, You shouldnt have to pay the full rate if it was misdiagnosed by the tech in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • acoggins
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Hi everyone,

    well a bit of an update. This morning I took the machine plus the entire cart around to a friends place. He has a bit of electrical knowledge and said hed help me out.

    We got the machine fired up, stuck a multimeter in to the terminals for the motor and started pumping the machine to try and get it to fault. About 5 minutes in and the power went out. Not the same problem. This time the RCD had tripped. Took the multimeter off then turned the power back on. All fine until I used the left hand group and boom. Power out again.

    It seems my machine has developed a new, possibly related, but probably not, fault where theres an earth leakage.

    At this point, Im going to put the machine aside and find something else to do the job. Fundamentally its a good machine, its a solid built e61 HX machine which with some TLC could be made to make good shots, but I simply cant afford to throw good money after bad for now.

    Thanks all for your help, and if you know of anyone selling a decent 2 group machine that runs on 3400 watts or less, Id like to know about it.

    -ACog

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Originally posted by 2E2E2E7F4D0 link=1287205763/12#12 date=1287275558
    Most of the motor capacitors failures Ive seen usually arent related to intermittent faults as described - they are either a blow/pop or open-cct and in many cases they have also taken out the motor as well.
    Context.. If your talking motor start cap then the above is a fair statement.

    I am talking about caps etc on the cct board ie, GICAR unit.

    My gut says Gicar OR sensor as to water level OR excess current.

    These could be hard component failure OR due to bad connections.

    Leave a comment:


  • ccc2
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Most of the motor capacitors failures Ive seen usually arent related to intermittent faults as described - they are either a blow/pop or open-cct and in many cases they have also taken out the motor as well.

    As Tek indicated, you may have a connection in the loom that is barely making contact and the vibration is causing this random cut-out. Probability 60%.

    its an awful type of problem and can be time-consuming to isolate - as AM suggested, you need to have a multi-meter on the pump motor contacts at the exact moment it is stopping to see if its a motor or a control (Gicar) issue - probability of Gicar is close to 40%.

    The other test you can perform is to run lots of steam or hot water, forcing the boiler to re-fill regularly. If there is a problem with general water pump/motor, it should also be affecting supply to the boiler. The Wega/San Marino/Astoria machines have the boiler sight glass which you can use to help work out how low the boiler gets before it kicks in the auto-fill.


    Leave a comment:


  • beanflying
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Not good intermittent problems to find

    Can you trace back from the pump to the control board or box and see if it is a relay to control it or a Solid State device (SSR, Transistor, Triac etc). If it is a relay it is possible that one or more of the points are clagged (technical term) or that with banging the machine around on the trailer damaged it is some way internally making them stick. If so then a change to an SSR instead will remove that mechanical problem.

    Going to be very hard to get to the bottom of it via the Web :-/

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Originally posted by 33313D35353B3C21520 link=1287205762/8#8 date=1287223800
    tek,

    an interesting thought, though the pressurestat continues to operate even when the pump takes a time out, so if it is a faulty connection its almost certainly local to the electricals for the groups. i.e. not the entire machine.

    AM, a faulty capacitor scares me, because it would be hard to determine and probably a pain to fix. A faulty motor is easy and costs are fixed.
    When I say cap... I pick on these as they are usually easy to identify.. Like many PC mother boards, most will pop their top when they had dried out etc and thus loss functionality. However there could be other factors involved as well.

    On a single layer board an easy replacement, but do not get them in the wrong way... BANG !! And a mess to boot. As to place of purchase.. Jacar these days or order from RS or Farnell.


    If you have a cct / wiring diag I may be able to give a better idea of where the problem might be... bUt with out, it is all close ya eyes and toss a dart.

    Leave a comment:


  • tek
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    Faulty Capacitor is easy to fix just replace it very cheap from electrical wholesalers

    Leave a comment:


  • acoggins
    replied
    Re: Random pump cut outs - 2 group Milano (wega)

    tek,

    an interesting thought, though the pressurestat continues to operate even when the pump takes a time out, so if it is a faulty connection its almost certainly local to the electricals for the groups. i.e. not the entire machine.

    AM, a faulty capacitor scares me, because it would be hard to determine and probably a pain to fix. A faulty motor is easy and costs are fixed.

    Leave a comment:

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