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Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 share?

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  • Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 share?

    Hey guys, I have just purchased a 2 group futurmat from trademe, it looks like it has the e61 grouphead, but it also has automatic dosing, so I think that means that it isnt the complete e61 package... I bought it from trademe:

    ************************************

    needs to be fixed, shouldnt be too expensive... I dont know much about futurmat, but the shiny e61 grouphead just sealed the deal for me ... I dont know much about futurmat, It is a big step up from my silvia, and im not sure about pressurestat adjustment on these commercial machines... anyone with words of wisdom to share? Your $0.02 would be greatly appreciated..

    Cheers, Mark

    Unsolicited commercial link removed,

    Mal.

  • #2
    Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

    It could be the pressurestat...it could also be the boiler element.

    Pressurestat adjustment is very finicky.....on an Azkoyen Vienna, it only took 1/10 th of a turn on the screw to bring it down from 1.6 bar to 1.3 bar

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

      Mark

      Id guess its the pressurestat as there are normally multiple elements in a 2 group (I have three for example).... and its unlikely these have all failed at once - unless of course the heaters were turned on without water in the tank!

      By the sounds of it you have bought this "sight unseen" - and therefore havent had a chance to check it at all . Brave man!

      Although I love used commercial machines- you really have to be very careful buying them..... as descriptions dont always match reality... and the difference can be very, very expensive to correct- a pump and motor can do damage around the $400 mark, a new element $100 etc. - and if you cant do the repairs yourself - add a lot more for labour.

      I hope it all works out well for you. If you have any questions - be sure to post them as quite a few of us here have refurbished commercial machines and although I havent got E61 groups others have.

      EDIT:

      The good news is that spares are available from CoffeeParts - Im sure they would ship to NZ
      a replacement element (actually 3 elements on one bulkhead) - $112
      replacement pressurestat - $90

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha


        Futurmat are one of the common manufacturers of the E61 group, the other being Ariete. Automatic machines dont have the manual valve operation, but replace it with a solenoid valve. However, you lose the pre-infusion function of the group by using the solenoid. However, it looks nice and clean on the outside. It should be a nice machine once you have it up an running. At least its a 15 amp machine. My 2 group La Pavoni is a 4.5 kW beast, which Ill end up running at 3kW just to keep it viable without rewiring the house.

        Cheers,

        Mark.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

          Mark and Mark

          The Futurmat is only 2600 watts.....(dont know why they quoted 2735W?) so not too bad on power drawn.... 15 amps should be OK.

          Mine is 4000W - requires a 20A run to keep it happy - although I could run it on 3 phase if I ever got around to putting in a 3 phase run to its location.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

            The extra 135W will cover the pump motor (if its a 100W pump) and a couple of solenoid valves (autofill amd two group solenoids). Viola!

            It looks a little low powered, especially compared to the 4.5kW heater in a 14 l boiler used in the la Pav.

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            • #7
              Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

              Ahhhh... yes of course!!

              Yep, I thought that as well - even though the boiler is 11L - 2600W isnt a lot in the commercial environment for which the machine is designed...... recovery time wouldnt be all that flash...

              But not a problem with home use naturally.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                Yep, it sounds like two 1300 W elements, similar to the Bezzera BZ40 (except the BZ uses only a 3.5 l boiler). As you said, itd be just fine and dandy for home use. Pity the silicone foam poll has closed.

                I was even thinking of running the Pav on a single 1500 W element... (sort of like running a Boeing 747 on a single engine)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                  Originally posted by Sparky link=1171702647/0#7 date=1171715532
                  Yep, it sounds like two 1300 W elements, similar to the Bezzera BZ40 (except the BZ uses only a 3.5 l boiler). As you said, itd be just fine and dandy for home use. Pity the silicone foam poll has closed.

                  two 1300W elements huh? So powerwise its basically 2 silvias stapled together.. well I dont need a heap of power for home use, would it be difficult to access the pressure stat? will I have to remove the side panels or something? im interested to experiment with the pressure, now that my shots are consistent on miss silvia, just for experimentations sake :P ...and making coffees 2 lattes each morning for mum and dad will be much quicker being able to steam and brew simultaneously...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha


                    For home use this will be heaps of power. The horsepower your missing is only useful for commercial environments that do a lot of steaming. But for a single user and anywhere less than say 50 people, this thing will just keep going.

                    The pressurestat will be near the top of the machine and quite close to the boiler. It will probably be a Sirai brand, which is a large commercial pressurestat. The adjustment is by a screw on top of the pressurestat (Note there are two screws, one hold on the cover and the other is accessed via a hole in the cover and adjusts the pressure of the steam boiler).

                    The brew pressure can also be adjusted by a screw on the side of the rotary pump.

                    As for being better than a Silvia, that will depend on the operator and how well you set up the machine.

                    Cheers,

                    Mark.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                      I took a look at the listing before the link above was removed, and assume you are in NZ?

                      Looks are a reasonable indication of whether previous owners cared for the equipment. It looked good.

                      If the purchase price was in NZ dollars, its positively cheap (even if it were Aus dollars, it would still be positively cheap)  so for you to spend a little more getting a professional service agent to give it the once over and repair is to my mind, a really good idea.

                      It will save you a great deal of time and frustration chasing your tail around the place trying to work out whats wrong, & buying parts where you dont even know whether the parts you are replacing are faulty to begin with. In essence guessing, and possibly spending money where you dont need to.

                      NZ has a healthy cafe culture, you wont have any trouble finding a repair agent or spare parts.

                      The specs outlined in the advert dont seem right. It would be unusual for a manufacturer to turn out a machine with an 11 litre boiler, then fit only a 2600W element. It can be done but it makes for very slow recovery in the cafe. It wont worry you at home, but youll be waiting an awful long time to get your brew after switching on. Additionally, it would be unusual for machines specified for the Australian (and presumably the New Zealand) market  to be such an odd figure. They would be either 10 amp (2400W) or 15 amp (3600W). Someone might privately fit something in between (say 12 amp) but it wouldnt figure on the compliance plate.

                      Or, maybe its an old 220 Volt (before EEC went to a standard 230Volt throughout participating countries) machine which kind of makes for funny figures.

                      As far as I can remember Futuremat usually employ faema style electric elements.  Dont be confused by talk of multi part elements for example that a 2600W element is 2 x 1300 watt elements. The two parts of the total element are fitted into a single flange. If any part of the element "assembly" is unserviceable, you replace the total because it is all encased in the single flange. To all intents and purposes for any discussion, its a "single" element, and it either heats up properly, or it doesnt.

                      New Sirai switches (presurestats) usually require quite some adjustment to get them set to the right spec. I generally find them to be very "slow" to adjust and this means, a lot of turns only make for small adjustment. This allows you to be quite accurate in setting your working pressure range.

                      Elements and pressurestats should be fitted by properly qualified people.

                      While you seem to be getting advice here to do your own thing, bear in mind that there are only a handful of members in forums like this that actually understand the equipment or know how to do their own work. The vast majority dont really know whats going on "under the bonnet" and really dont need to know.  

                      You need a black and white diagnosis, and the only way to get that is to turn the machine on and go hunting. You cant go hunting unless you know what whats going on (or is supposed to be going on) in there.

                      So dont feel pressured to go into this and to repeat from above, why not  engage a service professional in your local area, have it repaired as necessary, and let him give you advice about how best to fit in your home. That way you short circuit straight to the business of what the machines actually for, the enjoyment of the brew.

                      Hope this helps.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                        Originally posted by Curmudgeon link=1171702647/0#10 date=1171765489
                        I took a look at the listing before the link above was removed, and assume you are in NZ?

                        Looks are a reasonable indication of whether previous owners cared for the equipment. It looked good.
                        Mmmmm.... mine looked great from the outside (cafe owners generally care what the machine looks like) but the interior was a different story - down to maintenance and the quality of that maintenance! (poor in the case of my machine).... For example - the mains earth had been removed during a service and not replaced- resulting in a potential electrocution hazzard

                        The specs outlined in the advert dont seem right. It would be unusual for a manufacturer to turn out a machine with an 11 litre boiler, then fit only a 2600W element.
                        That surprised me too - but it is correct based on the genuine replacement heater

                        While you seem to be getting advice here to do your own thing, bear in mind that there are only a handful of members in forums like this that actually understand the equipment or know how to do their own work. The vast majority dont really know whats going on "under the bonnet" and really dont need to know. So dont feel pressured to go into this and to repeat from above, why not engage a service professional in your local area, have it repaired as necessary, and let him give you advice about how best to fit in your home. That way you short circuit straight to the business of what the machines actually for, the enjoyment of the brew.
                        If you know what you are doing - know your way around the internals of the machine, have electrical qualifications and understand how to "tune" a coffee machine.... I dont see a problem.

                        But if you are missing any of these skills- I wouldnt advise you attempt it (or even purchase a second hand commercial - especially one you cant test before purchase). The advice to get professional help is very wise - but be prepared for some (potentially) expensive repairs. To simply change the pressurestat setting without knowing how it will effect brew temperature.... may well lead to poor quality results. E61 groups are carefully tuned to match the boiler temp, heat exchanger performance, boiler water level (which effects heat exchanger performance)..... and to adjust any of these parameters may require other (compensating) adjustments.

                        So as Curmudgeon said, if unsure seek professional help - or you could end up with a machine producing coffee far inferior to the Silvia - or, in the worst case, dead as a result of electrocution. High powered mains appliances - especially where water and electricity are mixed- should not be repaired or modified by someone unskilled in this type of work- death is both unpleasant and permanent!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                          In addition, multi-part elements are designed that way to prevent catastrophic failure. So even though all the elements are contained in a single flange, you can use as many as you like, from one up to the number of elements. This means for home use, you can often use less elements to use less current and run on a lower amperage circuit.

                          The sage advice is to not attempt any modifications unless you are quite familiar with this sort of equipment.

                          Buying 2nd hand machines can be a real pain as they can take quite a bit of restoration, requiring time, money and effort. And in the end theyre still not new. But then you dont pay the price of a new machine.
                          Also a restored commercial machine can be a real conversation piece...

                          Regards,

                          Mark.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                            Originally posted by Sparky link=1171702647/0#12 date=1171770645
                            Also a restored commercial machine can be a real conversation piece...

                            Regards,

                            Mark.
                            Yep, your not wrong.

                            Several of my friends (who really enjoy the coffee from the machine) reckon Im totally mad having a machine of that size at home - maybe they are right :

                            But I enjoyed doing the restoration project as much as the coffee which the machine now produces.....

                            And its all about enjoying this great hobby - and what you personally want to get out of it!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Just got a 2 grp futurmat! any knowledge 2 sha

                              Yeah I thought itd be best not to go in to the exact nature of the conversations

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