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Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

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  • #31
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Originally posted by Thundergod link=1183704092/15#28 date=1183982988
    Whats your morning coffee woreth to you?

    How much is 8 hours of running time in $?

    How many coffees do you make in a day?

    What does it work out to cost per cup?

    Compare that to buying one at a cafe.
    There is no sentient life before coffee in the morning.

    Before I did this stupid calculation I never even thought about it. Coffee and convenience was all that mattered. Now with global warming etc, Im starting to feel some guilt.

    Gotta insulate and then forget...

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    • #32
      Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

      Very true, Telemaster. Depending on the time of the year (ambient room temperature), a continuous from-cold heat cycle of 10 minutes is the equivalent of idling a fully-warm machine for -- by my rough estimate -- 90 minutes.

      I crunched the numbers months ago, and from memory I think my machine would cost around $1 a day to have on round the clock.
      About the same cost as using a small electric heater for 3 hours. Or 1/3 the cost of a latte. Cheap.

      Energy costs are one part of the equation. There are other considerations, both positive and negative.

      Metal components are under less stress if they are kept at a constant temperature. On the other hand, the pressurestat is under greater strain with more frequent cycling. But repair costs are fairly cheap and very infrequent....

      Then, there is the best benefit of all. The intangible convenience of a walk-up start anytime you feel like a coffee.

      --Robusto



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      • #33
        Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

        Sparky, plant a tree and call it even.

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        • #34
          Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

          As a silly addendum --seeing how we care about the global carbon footprint --- If switching on he machine every time we feel like a coffee, several times a day, causes more stresses and strains on parts.... then those parts have to be manufactured, using mined ores, have to be transported--- all energy-intensive processes.

          (Wiped away any guilt feelings in a flash)

          --Robusto

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          • #35
            Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

            Originally posted by knewmans link=1183704092/15#25 date=1183978241
            I would have thought that a machine (like anything else) would lose more heat the hotter it is.
            It takes 1 calorie of energy to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree C. To turn water at 100C into steam requires 80 calories of energy per gram of water.

            The rate of heat loss is a function of the square of the temperature differential.


            Java "Isnt Physics fun?!" phile
            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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            • #36
              Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

              Originally posted by Javaphile link=1183704092/30#34 date=1184031174
              Originally posted by knewmans link=1183704092/15#25 date=1183978241
              I would have thought that a machine (like anything else) would lose more heat the hotter it is.
              It takes 1 calorie of energy to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree C. To turn water at 100C into steam requires 80 calories of energy per gram of water.

              The rate of heat loss is a function of the square of the temperature differential.


              Java "Isnt Physics fun?!" phile
              Now I know why I love my coffee- it helps me forget how much I love physics but how bad I am at it !
              Brett

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              • #37
                Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                Converting 1 gram of ice to water takes 80 calories to convert 1 gram of water to steam takes 540 calories. Thats why opening the steam tap causes the pressure in the boiler to drop so fast. Youre sucking the heat out very fast.

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                • #38
                  Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                  Originally posted by knewmans link=1183704092/30#36 date=1184085729
                  Converting 1 gram of ice to water takes 80 calories to convert 1 gram of water to steam takes 540 calories.
                  Oops! It looks like I mixed up the numbers for the two phase changes. :-/ :-[ I stand corrected.


                  Java "Thatll teach me not to verify a 25 year-old memory!" phile
                  Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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                  • #39
                    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                    I had to check first :

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                      I dont believe that anybody has to be guilty to pollute the earth or not. Take my two cents for all this carbon footprint talk being politics to make us more open again for nuclear power (I was involved in the planning phase of 5 new power plants all over the world not long ago).

                      My guilt is more a professional one in terms of wasting heat as a steam turbine engineer in case somebody wondered why I brought it into this discussion.

                      I also believe in thermal efficiency (in this case insulation) as it ALWAYS leads to better performance and process control.

                      I am still waiting for some more old machines to come in before starting. I havent decided on a machine yet because I want to have one which gives me the greatest access to the boiler (makes experimenting so much easier).

                      Edward

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                      • #41
                        Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                        Originally posted by Edward link=1183704092/30#39 date=1184319041
                        My guilt is more a professional one in terms of wasting heat as a steam turbine engineer in case somebody wondered why I brought it into this discussion.

                        I also believe in thermal efficiency (in this case insulation) as it ALWAYS leads to better performance and process control.

                        Edward
                        Edward,

                        Whilst I agree with your sentiments 100%, it is also necessary to acknowledge that coffee machines have been designed for a certain thermal equilibrium..... some parts of the machine need to radiate heat - and they do cause the loss of considerable heat - for example the group assembly.

                        So insulating the boiler wont cause any problems (unless it restricts air flow to the group assembly etc) but insulating other parts of the system will upset the delicate heat loss balance which the designer has decided upon - and destroy (or at least dramatically alter) the tuning of the coffee machine and therefore the quality of coffee it produces.

                        A fully insulated machine could be made to work very well - and efficiently - if done in the original design stage.... but would be a disaster as a retrofit on a standard design.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                          I wouldnt have thought that insulating the boiler itself would affect the performance of the machine at all. You arent changing the temperature of the boiler or the heat exchanger. Since they primarily act as heat stores insulation would only provide stability.

                          I do agree that insulating the group head and/or thermosyphon components could. But, these are also smallfry with regards to heat loss. My carimali has an electrically heated group with no thermal connection to the boiler. The heater is rated at, I think, only 35w and takes the group head to about 90C. Not worth insulating in comparison to the boiler.

                          I always thought the main reason for not insulating commercial machines was for ease of maintenance. Stripping insulation to maintain or visually check a boiler takes time.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                            Spot-on knewmans,

                            Insulating the boiler has significant benefits of efficiency and equipment longevity. Insulating the Group and the thermo-syphon loop pipework may well result in upsetting the operational equilibrium of the unit and require that you recalibrate this loop appropriately. Its a different argument in my view and not related to insulating the boiler. Most of the losses and therefore most of the gains can be gained by insulating the boiler, its basically very simple science. An added benefit is that the internal environment of the machine will no longer be exposed to this significant radiated heat loss and in the case of various electrical and electronic hardware and equipment, mitigating this effect is most beneficial.

                            Go for it mate, its worth doing....

                            Mal.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                              I am pondering whether running my V8 Land Rover on LPG means that I can sleep well whilst owning my insanely large coffee machine.....Oh, just had a sip of late from the temp stable brass group...mmmmmm...what was I debating again....

                              ....I shouldnt really be flippant about the green house should I....

                              Nice new avatar Rubusto.

                              Cheers

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

                                Um, Im doing my bit for a smaller carbon footprint. Always have done so to offset my fleet of V8s.

                                I drink mainly espressos. Which means less methane-producing cows are needed to feed my thirst for coffee. Also, my not-quite-as-insanely-large machine helps heat the house, so less natural gas and wood to burn.

                                Havent driven the insane distance to my boat lately--when will those Gippsland floods subside and the rains stop-- to then burn insane amounts of diesel.... that must have extended the life of the polar ice caps by a few years.


                                Thanks, Ozscott: Im just pondering whether the new old avatar is a good likeness. Perhaps a few more sugars in the espresso will bring me up to profile.

                                --Robusto, proudly doing his bit for the environment




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