Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • mgrobins
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    [QUOTE=4C786F79625549656C6C6F6F0A0 link=1183704092/64#64 date=1337159184]
    Originally posted by 4B646E730A0 link=1183704092/63#63 date=1337157804

    The machine will recover more quickly and overshoot more after the element switches off, there is a build up of heat in the system that cant escape like it used to due to the insulation.  More likelihood of scalding your coffee, much longer cooling flushes required, much quicker recovery and overshoot between making coffees requiring more and longer cooling flushes. That is my experience with the machines Ive done, and I guess that means I did a good job on the insulation......

    The machines are thermically designed the way they are, and when you change that there are consequences to deal with in the set up. Action / Reaction.
    Sure, a control system will overshoot if the rate of change in the system is greater.

    In this context I would expect different machines will suffer more or less depending on the ratio of element to boiler, amount of other surface area to allow heat escape (which will affect the total change to the system in altering the boiler) and probably many other factors.

    The feedback aspect of the loop here is mechanical yes? so you cant alter the arrangement without messing up other factors that you dont wish to. Probably not an easy, perfect solution for the home user...

    Personally I think the best way to do it is DIY insulation that is reasonably effective in achieving our goals  yet doesnt swing things so far that the coffee is worse in the cup  :

    Leave a comment:


  • mgrobins
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I insulated my Giotto Prem plus last week.

    I didnt want to pull the boiler and assembly apart so I used insul-brite in 2 and 4 layers (depending on space) with cutouts where required. I am using zip-ties to secure it.

    2 benefits:
    a. longer off time on the boiler in cycles,
    b. quieter and lower tone to the noise.

    As far as noise goes either I put it back together better than it was before w.r.t panels etc, the insulation is absorbing some of the noise, or the insulation is now between parts that were vibrating previously. Perhps all of these points.

    reducing the direct heat exposure to plastic components and electrical components will benefit them in the long run.
    Is the "long run" a time relevant for us as owners .... who knows.

    I did it because I could ;D

    Due to the surfeit of piping, the group head etc I cannot use the heat of the cabinet as a test by hand to determine how effective the insulation has been.

    It will help but I can only assume that a thin fibre like insul-brite will reach energy saturation fairly quickly and begin to conduct heat. Radiant energy will be reflected back by the reflective barrier.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fresh_Coffee
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    [QUOTE=4B646E730A0 link=1183704092/63#63 date=1337157804]
    Originally posted by 7C485F49526579555C5C5F5F3A0 link=1183704092/61#61 date=1337152522
    ...maybe the pre-heat wont save (much) power but might make for more stable boiler temperatures with less fluctuation, more so during the auto fill cycle.

    I guess thats what you meant by the nett effect being softer?.........
    Yes thats what I meant.

    Originally posted by 7E63676773680A0 link=1183704092/62#62 date=1337157098
    Originally posted by 023621372C1B072B22222121440 link=1183704092/61#61 date=1337152522
    Also when insulating, you make the whole system run hotter by keeping the heat in.
    I dont understand how you would make the machine run hotter without changing the pressurestat setting. Wouldnt it just reach the desired temp/pressure quicker and then just turn off?
    The machine will recover more quickly and overshoot more after the element switches off, there is a build up of heat in the system that cant escape like it used to due to the insulation.  More likelihood of scalding your coffee, much longer cooling flushes required, much quicker recovery and overshoot between making coffees requiring more and longer cooling flushes. That is my experience with the machines Ive done, and I guess that means I did a good job on the insulation......

    The machines are thermically designed the way they are, and when you change that there are consequences to deal with in the set up. Action / Reaction.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Originally posted by 7C485F49526579555C5C5F5F3A0 link=1183704092/61#61 date=1337152522
    Youve just given your boiler system / electric element more work to do ie more water to heat, and therefore slowed up the heating process which means the element stays on for longer
    I agree with that.

    ..but... (yeah most of the time there is a "but" after "I agree")...

    ...maybe the pre-heat wont save (much) power but might make for more stable boiler temperatures with less fluctuation, more so during the auto fill cycle.

    I guess thats what you meant by the nett effect being softer?

    Pre-heat should flatten out the temperature graph.

    Originally posted by 485D4F050 link=1183704092/60#60 date=1337141540
    I made this copper tube coil
    Excellent looking job too MJX.
    Silver solder (not tin/lead) I hope?

    Leave a comment:


  • timmyb
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Originally posted by 023621372C1B072B22222121440 link=1183704092/61#61 date=1337152522
    Also when insulating, you make the whole system run hotter by keeping the heat in.
    I dont understand how you would make the machine run hotter without changing the pressurestat setting. Wouldnt it just reach the desired temp/pressure quicker and then just turn off?

    Leave a comment:


  • Fresh_Coffee
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Some quick and random thoughts.

    By introducing such a coil, you are doing a "heat exchange" from the boiler, to preheat the cool water in the coil before it goes into the boiler. Youve just given your boiler system / electric element more work to do ie more water to heat, and therefore slowed up the heating process which means the element stays on for longer.....no?

    So theoretically, you have just gone part of the way to undoing the effect of trying to make your boiler more efficient by insulating it in the first place....?

    Also when insulating, you make the whole system run hotter by keeping the heat in. Use less power yes, but now you have to contend with the effect of over run of temperature on the brew water. So then you have to cool the machine down by making more mods......(I know this as Ive done it before)?

    Intorducing the pre heat / extra heat exchanger has just probably balanced it all out a bit and made the overall nett effect "softer"......?

    Seems like a lot of effort for not much real gain, except for the personal value in the enjoyment and satisfaction of doing the project ......

    Just my opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • MXJ
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    As part of my boiler insulation, I made this copper tube coil that fits tight around the boiler. I use it to preheat the boiler feed water. This way the pleasure/
    Temperature don’t drop when the boiler get filled. I then insulated the boiler and tube with braided fibreglass tape, same stuff they put around car exhaust pipes, and then covered the fibre glass tape with a self adhesive  aluminium tape, as used on air condition ducting.

    It all works very well


    Leave a comment:


  • GregWormald
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Do a search--there are lots of previous threads--including a sticky, by me, here:
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1258726137

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • mompt
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    what about the insulation of a domestic single boiler machine like a silvia or a gaggia classic? Anyone have any input on benefits? Heat up time, higher steam capacity, noise suppression? Or will it just end up messing with the thermostat on/off cycle?

    Leave a comment:


  • lmclaren
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Has anyone tried wool bats? From the specs they are good to 250c but recommended to 90c... Not to far from where a boiler sits.
    http://www.naturalinsulation.com.au/Batts/Wool-Batts

    At least they wont kill you

    Leave a comment:


  • patric
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I like the idea of exhaust heat wrap as it seems far easier and more readily available.  Would it do a decent enough job or is it worth searching for a better product?

    I have a 3 group San Marino that Im going to strip and rebuild with a purpose of fixing any issues known with the machines.
    Depending on how much I like it when Im finally finished with the machine, it may replace my La Pavoni  Europicola (just a "small" upgrade!)


    PS. It might be worth someone for more technically minded than me to look into silicone foam. Orphan espresso sells kits for two machines.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Originally posted by bazbasilbazza link=1183704092/45#54 date=1196149075
    I could not figure how to do the ends, so they are uninsulated.
    Excellent suggestion Baz,

    And welcome to CoffeeSnobs by the way..... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    With my Bezzera, my intention is to fabricate the end pieces to suit the pipework/heater element, etc and then overlap these such that the wrap around the cylindrical part of the boiler will trap these and fix them in place. Ive completed similar tasks on other similarly shaped components and found this method to stand the test of time so can see no reason why it wouldnt work on an espresso machine boiler.

    All the best mate and look forward to reading more of your posts in the near future ,

    Cheers,
    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • bazbasilbazza
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I have a Commercial Boema 2 group coffee machine which is for home use. (Yes, I know, that is a bit over the top BUT I bought it on ebay and reconditioned it.)

    I insulated the boiler by using muffler "fibre glass" bandage. Six metres (6 cm wide) went around the boiler cylinder twice i.e. two layers. I could not figure how to do the ends, so they are uninsulated. It cost about $12/metre. Total cost $72. Expensive? Yes, but better than nothing!
    I have noticed a difference. It cycles on less often. The cups on top still get very warm as I only make about 12 cups per day on a weekend and less on a weekday.

    P.S. I dont drink all that coffee myself.
    P.P.S. Hope this helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • tominoz
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Very interesting arguments here. Has anyone thought of going to REPCO and getting either exhaust insulating bandage or engine bay insulation. They use these to lower the temps from under the bonnet, they may also help quieten the pump a bit.

    Good luck,

    Thomas

    Leave a comment:


  • Tim_Rea
    replied
    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    To robusto thanks for the encouragment i am hoping to strip the gaggia some time soon but am in a bussy spell.
    It does seam to take a while to get hot will have to time it talking to some one today who comented that it must be an old machine at 2500watts with a 14 liter boiler. looking forward to working through a renovation on the machine.

    Thanks mal nice to hear of some one trying the insulation do you have any pics how did effect performance. again thanks from a new bean.

    Ps.

    also am looking forward to getting my green beens on saturday and starting roasting may even have a grinder by then. THanks Tim 8-)

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X