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Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

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  • Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

    Hi all,

    Im trying to descale the boiler, heat exchangers and element on a M27. Dont know what these parts looked like when new, but Im assuming they were all a bright copper colour (?)

    When I pulled the machine apart they all came out with a 100% dark brown / black coating (which I thought was the scale). After soaking for 24hrs plus in a mixture 2ltrs water and 500g (whole container) of Cafetto EVO descaling powder, and some scrubbing with one of those green pot scrubber pads, only very small areas of the HXs and bits of the element are going back to a orange copper colour. The small bits of white however (lime / calcium?) pretty much all disappeared or softened up and came away easily.

    Should I keep persevering with longer soaking or try something else? Or was the black colour some sort of coating that is supposed to be there?

    Anyone know what the HXs are made from, and if they are supposed to have some sort of copper coating?

    thanks.


  • #2
    Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

    here are the pics:  







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    • #3
      Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

      Gday Borat.....

      I have no experience of the Cafetto EVO you mention but I thought it was supposed to be an Organic Cleaner for Backflushing the Group - I could be wrong. Personally, Id highly recommend the use of this Bombora product... http://www.bomborasupplies.com.au/pr...at=6155&page=1 which can be purchased through several of our Site Sponsors as well and is special-purpose descaling product.

      Just follow the instructions on the container and it will do a great job. Pretty sure LC machines use copper and brass for all the various components within the hydraulic circuit(s). Some items like the Boiler may be Nickel Plated and could be mistaken for stainless steel but are in fact made from copper. From the photos above though, your machine doesnt look too bad and should clean up really nicely and without the need for lots of elbow grease.

      All the best
      Mal.

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      • #4
        Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

        According to the Cafetto website the EVO is a cleaner for coffee oils etc. and for backflushing, NOT a de-scaler.

        It sounds to me like a go with a proper de-scaler is the go, as Mal has suggested.

        Greg

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        • #5
          Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

          Originally posted by 0E23272B264A0 link=1245413520/2#2 date=1245508290
          I have no experience of the Cafetto EVO you mention but I thought it was supposed to be an Organic Cleaner for Backflushing the Group - I could be wrong.  
          Youre not.
          Thats what it says on my container as well.

          Borat - read the label.



          Originally posted by 0D382F2D1D2538272B262E4A0 link=1245413520/3#3 date=1245547992
          According to the Cafetto website the EVO is a cleaner for coffee oils etc. and for backflushing, NOT a de-scaler.

          It sounds to me like a go with a proper de-scaler is the go, as Mal has suggested.
          Ditto.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

            Throw them in a bucket of hot water with a packet of citric acid (available in the spice isle at the supermarket, look for a lime green cardboard tube) and check every day. Depending on how bad it is it can take a while (Up to a week). Change the solution every couple of days if necessary. Use gloves and keep the bucket out of reach of kids and pets. Copper poisoning is not good.
            The parts should end up a bright and shiny copper or brass colour.
            Paul.

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            • #7
              Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

              Ok, thanks. Yes I used the wrong cleaner..... and am a silly b*stard who didnt read the label.

              Its now sitting in descaling rather than backflushing solution and well see how that goes.

              Does the boiler water only get used to heat the heat exchangers and to provide steam? And the heat exchangers get water that hasnt been through the boiler (?) If thats the case, maybe I should just descale the boiler, and buy a couple of new HXs, as they look like they were plated (silvery colour with copper underneath), and quite a bit of the plating seems to be missing.

              Anyway Ill have another look at them after descaling for a few days.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                Hi Borat,
                I second what Mal suggested....the Bombora product is truly excellent!
                It will do a fabulous job. I used it a few years ago now on my 2 group and achieved remarkable results.
                Just be sure to feed your new beast appropriately soft and filtered water after the descale.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                  Originally posted by 535E435045000302310 link=1245413520/6#6 date=1245585451
                  Ok, thanks.   Yes I used the wrong cleaner.....   and am a silly b*stard who didnt read the label.  

                  Its now sitting in descaling rather than backflushing solution and well see how that goes.

                  Does the boiler water only get used to heat the heat exchangers and to provide steam? Corect And the heat exchangers get water that hasnt been through the boiler (?) Corect   If thats the case, maybe I should just descale the boiler, and buy a couple of new HXs, as they look like they were plated (silvery colour with copper underneath), and quite a bit of the plating seems to be missing. The silver you are seeing could be where the parts have been silver soldered together. I am just guessing, I can only give advice based on the one machine I have done which is not a Cimbali   Wait until they are totally clean before spending any money and re-assess then

                  Anyway Ill have another look at them after descaling for a few days. Let us know how you go and take some more photos ;D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                    Originally posted by 6D607D6E7B3E3D3C0F0 link=1245413520/6#6 date=1245585451
                    Does the boiler water only get used to heat the heat exchangers and to provide steam?And the heat exchangers get water that hasnt been through the boiler (?)
                    Correct, the water that passes through the HX(s) to make the espresso does not come from the boiler. The boiler water is used to heat the HX(s) and to provide steam and hot water at the taps.


                    Java "Sippin da CP" phile
                    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                      Ok, so after another day or so of soaking in a mixture of 250g citric acid & 8ltrs of water, things are cleaning up quite nicely.

                      But...............  everything now has a strange pinky / orange residue on it that is almost impossible to scrub off.    Eg the brass group head has gone from a brass colour to pink (??),  even chromed bits have got some of the pink stuff on it.

                      Maybe its some sort of electrolysis from the other copper components in the bath (heat exchangers & piping) dissolving and binding to the other metals like the brass group heads?

                      Should I be worried about this stuff inside the group heads and other areas. If so, any tips on how I can now get rid of it?

                      PS - Ill put up some more pictures later today

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                      • #12
                        Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                        So heres the after descaling with citric acid powder pics of one of the group heads and the steam valve.   You can see the discolouring on the left hand side of the group head.


                        [img]
                        http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa143/ss_0001/IMG_0210.jpg[/img]



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                        • #13
                          Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                          Came up great. Thats the color it should be. Cant wait for it to all go together and see some piccys

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                          • #14
                            Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                            Originally posted by 546B6D6A7770415C7167727B1E0 link=1245413520/12#12 date=1245734561
                            Came up great.  Thats the color it should be.  Cant wait for it to all go together and see some piccys
                            Yup--thats the correct colour for acid-cleaned brass. Way to go.

                            Greg

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                            • #15
                              Re: Help... Descaling Cimbali M27 & need advice

                              And heres some before & after pics of one the heat exchangers.   The copper area inside that previously had lots of scale, is now a different colour and has a rougher feel to it.

                              Do you think they are still ok to use, or does this look like pitting?




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