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M27 water fill wont shut off.......

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  • maidens
    replied
    My Boema has the same problem

    Originally posted by telemaster View Post
    Hi Borat could be a circuit problem- I had to replace an auto fill card on a Boema.
    Just for my own info, do you put the water filter before the pressure reducer? Ive got the reverse and my Faema seems to struggle with filling
    Brett
    I have an old Boema with the same problem but it happens when the machine is off. I tried to find the solenoid but to no avail. any help would be appreciated.
    PS It also happens when the machine is on.

    I have to turn of the supply or it will pop the safety valve at 80psi.

    Leave a comment:


  • telemaster
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    So, now we know why Borats smiling?
    Well done and good luck
    Brett

    Leave a comment:


  • maheel
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......



    ahemmmm ahemmmmm


    lol..... glad you hopefully found the fault

    but thread needs more pictures

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Originally posted by 6E637E6D783D3E3F0C0 link=1247055437/18#18 date=1247745283
    Found the missing line to the boiler hidden under the wiring loom and a rubber boot...

    Read on if youre interested in the conclusion to this never ending story...   So, courtesty of Angermanagment the autofill board is tested ok, but somehow the circuit between the level probe and the tank wasnt happening.  

    The cable labeled 6 at the Gicar box was supposed to earth to the tank, but I couldnt find the other end, and it pretty much impossible to eyeball back through the wiring loom.   I ended up using the meter to test for continuity between this wire and every other black wire terminal on the whole machine.  Nothing...    hmmmmm

    After a couple of hours of this, I took a break for some nice Ethiopian Limu, and decided I might as well clean some more on the inside of the box while I was at it.

    As I was taking off the big rubber boot that covers the terminals on the other end of the boiler element lines, I found a single black cable, neatly folded back on the underside of the loom and hidden by the boot.  Tested it with the meter and sure enough it was the other end to the 6 cable.

    So, hopefully the Gicar box will arrive back tomorrow, Ill fire her up again and with a bit of luck everything will be working  :

    While I was feeling lucky with the meter I also tested all the solenoids, and they were between 0.63-0.65K ohm.

    Also been busy the last few days hand sanding back all the panels to bare metal.    Going to see if I can find a panel shop willing to paint them up for me with metallic silver at a reasonable price.

    Well done....

    Please post pics once she is all completed... Pics of teh inside as well as the outside..


    Leave a comment:


  • borat123
    Guest replied
    Problem solved!!!!!!!

    Found the missing line to the boiler hidden under the wiring loom and a rubber boot...

    Read on if youre interested in the conclusion to this never ending story... So, courtesty of Angermanagment the autofill board is tested ok, but somehow the circuit between the level probe and the tank wasnt happening.

    The cable labeled 6 at the Gicar box was supposed to earth to the tank, but I couldnt find the other end, and it pretty much impossible to eyeball back through the wiring loom. I ended up using the meter to test for continuity between this wire and every other black wire terminal on the whole machine. Nothing... hmmmmm

    After a couple of hours of this, I took a break for some nice Ethiopian Limu, and decided I might as well clean some more on the inside of the box while I was at it.

    As I was taking off the big rubber boot that covers the terminals on the other end of the boiler element lines, I found a single black cable, neatly folded back on the underside of the loom and hidden by the boot. Tested it with the meter and sure enough it was the other end to the 6 cable.

    So, hopefully the Gicar box will arrive back tomorrow, Ill fire her up again and with a bit of luck everything will be working :

    While I was feeling lucky with the meter I also tested all the solenoids, and they were between 0.63-0.65K ohm.

    Also been busy the last few days hand sanding back all the panels to bare metal. Going to see if I can find a panel shop willing to paint them up for me with metallic silver at a reasonable price.

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Originally posted by 4E435E4D581D1E1F2C0 link=1247055437/16#16 date=1247665817
    Ok thanks, thats great that the board is not the problem...  Thanks again for all your time and effort in the testing  

    With power off and the machine unplugged, Ill get stuck into continuity testing with the meter tomorrow.  Youre right, the only other line to the boiler (apart from the level probe) is an earth (green / yellow), attached via the element baseplate, and the connection looks pretty much the same as per javaphiles pic above.  

    It then runs back to a common earth post.   The link between this and LM (SR) [6] is not obvious, as the cable is black and runs off into the wiring harness.  Anyway, Ill have a closer look and try to follow it through tomorrow.

    Re the water, Im just using tap water run through a bombora scale stopper filter.  From there it goes into the machine, through a one way valve, the fill valve / solenoid, and then into the boiler.  Im pretty sure it just uses mains pressure for the fill.  The outlet from the vibratory pumps runs straight into the group heads.
    Item packed and post bag placed in a post box at midday... Keep us in teh loop as to what you find and how it all goes..

    Leave a comment:


  • borat123
    Guest replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Ok thanks, thats great that the board is not the problem... Thanks again for all your time and effort in the testing

    With power off and the machine unplugged, Ill get stuck into continuity testing with the meter tomorrow. Youre right, the only other line to the boiler (apart from the level probe) is an earth (green / yellow), attached via the element baseplate, and the connection looks pretty much the same as per javaphiles pic above.

    It then runs back to a common earth post. The link between this and LM (SR) [6] is not obvious, as the cable is black and runs off into the wiring harness. Anyway, Ill have a closer look and try to follow it through tomorrow.

    Re the water, Im just using tap water run through a bombora scale stopper filter. From there it goes into the machine, through a one way valve, the fill valve / solenoid, and then into the boiler. Im pretty sure it just uses mains pressure for the fill. The outlet from the vibratory pumps runs straight into the group heads.

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    OK...

    Ya board is 100% OK....  My meter had a faulty lead..  :-X :-[    My temp meter also had a faulty J type temp probe, as well as a fault on my manometer..  Bugger of a week for test equipment.

    WARNING.

    This must be done and checked at many stages by a qualified person prior to connecting to your supply grid and switching on for testing and or when going live at the end of you refurb...

    1: Please clean the system up-  as from the pics above... DIRTY...

    2: The area is fully of 240V so you should be having a Qualified Elec look and work on it... 240V can and does kill...  More often than many realise.. 3 here in Qld in the last month..

    3: The system has some smarts  8-)  and uses AC from the transformer out via the sense probe and back via teh bridge to drive / bias the stand alone transistor, which in turn drives the darlingtion pair, which in turn drive the relay.

    4: SL goes to ya probe..

    5: SM (SR) should go to the Boiler ...

    What the system is looking for is a signal to pass between SL and SM that indicates that there is a Conductive medium available...  Now in general tap water should give you about 240k at about 2cm... This is all approx as many factors come into play.

    With the sense probe coming in from teh top ? and the water inside conductive boiler  etc the separation that defines a presence of a conductive medium is a matter of testing...

    A: DO NOT USE high purity water.... It would mean that you would almost need teh probe touching and or a modification to triple the voltage to the probe to respond to what impurities might be available..  This would mean a non valadiated modification and could introduce any number of problems.

    6: Get a Qualified Elec to assist you and or watch him do it..  This is dangerous and not recommended for a non qualified person as it means the person would/could be working LIVE!!!!

    A: Turn every thing off and disconnect.

    B: Check to ensure that there is continuity from the connector to the bottom of the probe.
    C: The probe must be isolated from teh tank...  Should have an insulating washer / seal.
    D: LM (SR) [6] which goes to the Tank should be an EARTH wire ( Green and Yellow).  All blue and Black from what I can see... This could be confusing and cause problems... The wires should be clearly identified.
    E: Check the depth of ya sensor probe if ya can...  Ohm meter and check that it goes short  between [4] (your pic) and ground [6] when the probe touches the wall of teh boiler..

    At this stage if all check out... You could put the unit back into the connectors..  Get it teh wrong way round and = BANK .  WTF system is destroyed...

    F: The pot is there to adjust the sensitivity - but has at least a 1 to 2 sec delay...

    G: In principle / the ideal is that on turn on, the tank should fill to the level you want or should I say... pump kick in when it is senses no conductive medium...  It should then run until it gets a signal and for a further time as defined by the delay identified above - approx - and then teh pump should stop.

    H: Thus you either move teh probe up and OR down OR adjust the pot... To obtain teh right fill level and manage the band of available water....

    NOTE: When you get your elec friend to wire it all up...  get him/her to put a small hole in to allow you to adjust teh pot.   Small adjustments...  Very small adjustments and a couple of seconds wait to allow the cct to respond.

    If the probe and wiring does not have continuity OR the tank is not earthed / connected correctly etc  OR if your using water that has had all the minerals taken out...  Then the cct will not work and teh pump will remain on...  This will result in a FLOOD...  40 days and we all have to do somthing different for a while  

    WARNING.

    All care NO responsibility... This must be done and checked at many stages by a qualified person prior to connecting to your supply grid and switching on for testing and or when going live at the end of you refurb...

    AM and GG

    PS...  Typed and not proof read... So if in doubt... ASK.


    WARNING.

    This must be done and checked at many stages by a qualified person prior to connecting to your supply grid and switching on for testing and or when going live at the end of you refurb...

    Leave a comment:


  • borat123
    Guest replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    No problem at all

    Heres the diagram & pics I tried to send via PM......





    cheers.

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Originally posted by 424F524154111213200 link=1247055437/11#11 date=1247142934
    hanks Angermanagement - PM sent.
    Bugger me .... NOT


    Well all 3 BC547 have popped :P

    Now, I would usualy head off to my mates and rebuild ASAP from his supply of parts...

    However as you may be aware... She in control of $$$ and the quality of my time here on earth.. Is arriving back from Italy TONIGHT 8-) : :-*

    So if I play my cards right :-? :-*

    That means your job will have to take second priority

    Will keep ya informed... Would like to think back in the bag to you by Friday..

    Oh... Thanks for including teh return bag... Nice thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Originally posted by 4D405D4E5B1E1D1C2F0 link=1247055437/11#11 date=1247142934
    Thanks Angermanagement - PM sent.

    Hi Maheel,  yes I purposely left the wires on the solenoids when I took them off the valves- so they should all still be in on the right terminals.  

    The autofill board only came out after the machine was fully reassembled, so all those wires were also still in their original positions.

    Good point though, it was worth checking.
    Mate said what I was thinking... Those little marks on the transistors... They marks for chips / burn marks ??


    The two together ate a wired as a Darlington pair driving the relay and teh other is amplifying the signal from your sensor probe..

    The diode across teh relay is to manage teh back EMF of teh coil and if it has blown... or any of teh three transistors then the board = STUFFED.

    His comment was... Have all teh components sitting in his junk draw... ;D

    Problem... Without the unit in his hand or Mine... We can do nothing more... :-[

    Leave a comment:


  • borat123
    Guest replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Thanks Angermanagement - PM sent.

    Hi Maheel, yes I purposely left the wires on the solenoids when I took them off the valves- so they should all still be in on the right terminals.

    The autofill board only came out after the machine was fully reassembled, so all those wires were also still in their original positions.

    Good point though, it was worth checking.

    Leave a comment:


  • maheel
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    hey Borat
    i know this sounds to simple but you have plugged the board in the right way round right........
    and any of the wires to sensors / solenoids etc
    not swaped them over or something???

    only cause i plugged in a wire back to front on my "project carmila" and it did not like it. that mistake was even after i marked the wires and took pics........ took me a while but then i picked up on it

    go back over the wires and check again, hope its a simple fix for you

    Maheel

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Originally posted by 636E736075303332010 link=1247055437/8#8 date=1247137168
    Hi guys,

    thanks for the replies.    The boiler has a probe, rather than a float.  I took the probe out of the boiler; the teflon bit looks intact, and the bit that was inside the boiler was spotless without any scale at all.

    Im tending to think its a fault with the board.  I read somewhere about removing the wire to the probe and grounding it during the autofill.  If the solenoid doesnt clunk and the fill stop, then its likely the board is the problem.   Found this on:  http://www.home-barista.com/espresso...lem-t7147.html

    Anyone know someone who can diagnose and repair the board?   I really dont want to have to spend another $200 for a new one.....

    From what Ive read so far, the components on it are pretty cheap.  I can solder ok, but absolutely no idea on how to work out which bits need replacing. Maybe Ill just replace the relay for a start and see if that helps.
    My guess in the first instance is teh black box...  It appears to be the one that has been replaced previously.. A bit hard to see when looking at the bottom of the board and trying to flip in teh mind as to the placement of components..

    Now if you were in Brisbane I could have it solved in a flash :-)

    I will see if a mate ... A top Fishing mate and one of the best Electronic minds I have ever met / dealt with...  But he hates the WEB and Forums...   PM me your e-mail addy and I will reply to you and him with a copy of your post...

    Part of teh problem is that troubleshooting this stuff really requires hands on... So many things can mean so much and hands on and a meter is like a picture.  It tells a thousand words..

    Leave a comment:


  • borat123
    Guest replied
    Re: M27 water fill wont shut off.......

    Hi guys,

    thanks for the replies. The boiler has a probe, rather than a float. I took the probe out of the boiler; the teflon bit looks intact, and the bit that was inside the boiler was spotless without any scale at all.

    Im tending to think its a fault with the board. I read somewhere about removing the wire to the probe and grounding it during the autofill. If the solenoid doesnt clunk and the fill stop, then its likely the board is the problem. Found this on: http://www.home-barista.com/espresso...lem-t7147.html

    Anyone know someone who can diagnose and repair the board? I really dont want to have to spend another $200 for a new one.....

    From what Ive read so far, the components on it are pretty cheap. I can solder ok, but absolutely no idea on how to work out which bits need replacing. Maybe Ill just replace the relay for a start and see if that helps.

    Leave a comment:

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