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  • Need help choosing the right machine

    Hi all,

    Im a newbie in this site but know my coffee (not how to make it though!). Im a hardcore drinker ( 3-5 cups a day, double and triple shots) and the rest of family are consuming about 6 cups a day. Im willing to spend good $$$ on what we are after which is a fully automatic machine. I researched the web and ended up with Jura Z5 Gen ll, Delonghi ESAM6700 and Saeco Primea Touch 2 Cappuccino.

    I know that both Saeco and Jura make two cups at the same time which is an advantage but not that important for me. Things that are important for us:

    We dont want to froth the milk, dont have time, cant be bothered, hence paying top dollars for the machine.

    We dont want a goodlooking lemon. Do you have any feedback on past customers satisfaction that you can share?

    Although its also the beans that change the coffee taste, we want a best cafe quality brewed coffee out of auto machine. Which one is the best out there?

    While some of these have somany features, we are only interested in making coffee! after all, they all push 15 bar steam so do we really need to go bling bling or is there any other brand or type of automatic machine that makes it all happen with a push of a button?

    Also im a bit disappointed that Jura and Saeco sell machines over 4k but you still see the milk container sitting next to the machine! I mean cmon, no one wants to see a jar or milk carton sitting on the bench. Maybe you know of a model that has internal milk compartment?

    Guys, im saying thank you in advance for any kind of reply.

    Cheers,

    Driv3r

  • #2
    Re: Need help choosing the right machine

    Originally posted by 73455E410445370 link=1250739532/0#0 date=1250739532
    Hi all,

    Im a newbie in this site but know my coffee (not how to make it though!). Im a hardcore drinker ( 3-5 cups a day, double and triple shots) and the rest of family are consuming about 6 cups a day. Im willing to spend good $$$ on what we are after which is a fully automatic machine. I researched the web and ended up with Jura Z5 Gen ll, Delonghi ESAM6700 and Saeco Primea Touch 2 Cappuccino....<snip>

    Cheers,

    Driv3r
    Hooley dooley Driv3er....

    You wont find too many CSers who will recommend that you take the route that youre proposing.

    I can think of much better things to do with $4K than to purchase a machine which will at best produce decidedly average coffee and at worst lead to expensive repairs and heartbreak.

    I have always maintained that if you want coffee at the push of a button, best to get a talented barista in a great cafe to push the buttons for you...

    Caveat emptor...

    2mcm

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Need help choosing the right machine

      Internal milk compartment?
      I dont know any machine that has an inbuilt fridge.

      You seem determined to get an automatic.

      Talk to Gilkatho about the Jura.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Need help choosing the right machine

        Originally posted by 6F534E555F5E495C545F3B0 link=1250739532/2#2 date=1250749769
        I dont know any machine that has an inbuilt fridge.
        The Cimbali super-autos do. But they also cost a lot more than $4k. And still dont produce as good a cup as you can making it yourself.


        Java "Former owner of a Cimbali M52" phile
        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Need help choosing the right machine

          Hi DRIV3R,

          Some off the cuff comments:

          1. Laziness and high quality in home-made coffee dont go together. So expect to pay BIG to have a machine do it, if you can find one that will. I recommend trial coffees before purchase.

          2. When a machine is up to proper brewing temperature the inside temperature will be over 50°C, and your milk would last about 10 minutes before souring. In addition your beans will stale quickly at this temperature.

          3. 15 bar pressure is not used--only about 9 or 10, the extra is advertising.

          4. Machine froth is not made the same way as barista froth and wont have the same taste or texture.

          5. Quality beans are indeed a prerequisite. Roasted no more than 2 weeks before purchase.

          6. Next is a quality grind. High quality grinders alone START about $800 and rapidly move into 4 figures. Putting one of these into an automatic machine really raises the price.

          7. Every fully auto machine I have used requires daily intensive cleaning, weekly or so maintenance, and overhauls about every 6 months to a year. Spend the time on each coffee, or all together at the end of every day and more weekly.

          8. Spend days every year with no coffee while the machine is at the service agents. Spend repair money and delivery time or delivery money once the machine is out of warranty.

          Good luck mate, I hope you can find what suits.

          Greg

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Need help choosing the right machine

            OMG... never mind the fridge, the Cimbali would want to do class art as well for that much $  

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Need help choosing the right machine

              Wow, thanks guys, you guys sure hate automatic machines! lol, dont blame you.

              When I said internal milk container, i meant for a place to put the milk carton, it means if you are not using it, you then put it in the fridge. All Jura commercial machines have that.

              The reason im looking for automatic is that we dont have time making it ourselves. We work from home, so believe me, time taken making coffee is money lost.

              I know cafe quality is not what we get with auto machines but i was after the best quality money can buy with autos (for home use).

              Greg, taking your point 7 in consideration, is it better to go for cheaper auto machine that does the same thing as Jura Z5? what do you think of Delonghi ESAM3500 then? ($1600)

              Im lucky to have access to colombian beans (very expensive but my gfs dad imports them so I get it for free).

              So in a nuttshell, paying top dollar for auto is waste? if I have to get it, go for a mid range?

              If I was to make the coffee myself ( and I wouldnt know how or how to begin to learn), what machine would serve my purpose?

              Thanks guys,

              Driv3r

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                If you want super fast coffee:

                Get a grinder & plunger
                Drink it black

                OR

                Get a grinder & good coffee machine (not full auto)
                Drink espresso

                Nice and fast  

                Also, by drinking espresso, you can have more coffees before you need to go to the toilet, thus saving even more time!  ;D

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                  Oh I take mine espresso! the rest of my family use milk. Espresso all the way for me!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                    In a rush, I can probably pull an espresso shot in 2 minutes, including grinding.
                    Originally posted by 7275647764010 link=1250739532/7#7 date=1250774133
                    Drink espresso

                    Nice and fast  
                    Absolutely. You could make an espresso in 2min including grinding with the equipment $4K would get you. Thats a maximum of 10 minutes out of your day.

                    Of course most of us on here love the ritual of making coffee and take longer than that to savour the moment.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                      Originally posted by 30202231263A430 link=1250739532/5#5 date=1250767772
                      OMG... never mind the fridge, the Cimbali would want to do class art as well for that much $
                      When I had the M52 they were selling out the door for about $AUD30,000. And even with all the fine tuning in the world you couldnt get them to produce as good an espresso as I could with my old school semi-auto M28.

                      As others have stated the best super-auto in the world will only yield at best average espresso. And dont forget that in order to get even average espresso you will have to adjust the fineness and quantity of the grind as well as water volume multiple times over the course of the day! If you dont then the quality of the espresso will be even worse than average.

                      Starbucks used the Cimbali M52 in their stores and even with as poor a quality a cup as they serve they soon pulled them out due to cup quality and repair/downtime issues.

                      I would think long and hard before buying a super-auto. I would also highly recommend a demo of any unit youre looking at using your beans. You may well find that your Colombian beans are not well suited for espressos. Especially in a super-auto.


                      Java "The proof is in the cup!" phile
                      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                        All I asked was which coffee machine, im not here to get opinion on surgery! "provide detailed context" my $#@%! Harvey norman wouldnt even employ sarcastic sales people! (joke) Give me extra context so i can tell you go read the manual! Some people..  : ;D

                        Hey Dennis mate, it was a figure of speech like a joke, I know what you mean.

                        Things that I really wanted to know was like:

                        Originally posted by 0B372A313B3A2D38303B5F0 link=1250739532/2#2 date=1250749769
                        You seem determined to get an automatic.

                        Talk to Gilkatho about the Jura.  
                        Originally posted by 182D3A3808302D323E333B5F0 link=1250739532/4#4 date=1250763073
                        2. When a machine is up to proper brewing temperature the inside temperature will be over 50°C, and your milk would last about 10 minutes before souring. In addition your beans will stale quickly at this temperature.

                        3. 15 bar pressure is not used--only about 9 or 10, the extra is advertising.

                        4. Machine froth is not made the same way as barista froth and wont have the same taste or texture.

                        5. Quality beans are indeed a prerequisite. Roasted no more than 2 weeks before purchase.

                        6. Next is a quality grind. High quality grinders alone START about $800 and rapidly move into 4 figures. Putting one of these into an automatic machine really raises the price.

                        7. Every fully auto machine I have used requires daily intensive cleaning, weekly or so maintenance, and overhauls about every 6 months to a year. Spend the time on each coffee, or all together at the end of every day and more weekly.

                        8. Spend days every year with no coffee while the machine is at the service agents. Spend repair money and delivery time or delivery money once the machine is out of warranty.
                        Originally posted by 153E293E2F3736333A5F0 link=1250739532/10#10 date=1250801857
                        I would think long and hard before buying a super-auto. I would also highly recommend a demo of any unit youre looking at using your beans. You may well find that your Colombian beans are not well suited for espressos. Especially in a super-auto.  
                        Anyhow, I will have to go to HN store because Jura is demonstrating Z5 next week.

                        Dennis, i might take you up on that offer and visit you mate, who knows maybe i buy a semi auto after all.

                        Flynn, you killing me mate!  ;D ;D ;D

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                          Originally posted by 50667D622766140 link=1250739532/26#26 date=1250826011
                          Dennis, i might take you up on that offer and visit you mate
                          Youd be very welcome.

                          Also, I believe fully automatic machines serve a purpose, particularly when it comes to a busy work environment, perhaps such as yours.  I have a number of wholesale customers who purchase coffee and I roast the coffee to suit the equipment used.

                          If you are intent on pursuing a fully auto, Id suggest also looking at the Saeco Royal Cappuccino.  I havent used this myself but have heard on the grapevine from people I respect in the coffee industry that it works well for an auto.

                          I guess the difficulty is often in finding an outlet that can demonstrate the machines capability.  If you can see them in action, as per the Jura demo at HN, then I strongly recommend you take that opportunity.

                          Ultimately, choosing a fully auto will be a compromise away from the quality of coffee that can be produced by a traditional espresso machine.

                          All the best with whatever you decide, and hope that actually has been of some help.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                            So if I was to purchase a coffee machine under 4k that makes the best coffee for its value (i am not talking about full auto), which one would you recommend? If I can have some time each weekend and learn how to make coffee, what could I do with 4k? I hear the grinder plays a key role? in this case, what is good, buying two machines or go for the combined one?(if there is any), or go 2k and 2k? I am off today so had time to look into this and find that you are sure right about the quality of the coffee made from auto machine and since i love my coffee, im gonna take your advice and learn how to make it, atleast for myself!

                            Cheers

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Need help choosing the right machine

                              DRIV3R where are you located? If you are serious about wanting to learn how to make coffee then you should look at enrolling in a home barista course (this will help you understand the variables and get you making delicious coffee from the get go).

                              Comment

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