Importing espresso machines

[maheel]

Re: Importing espresso machines

What I don’t understand is the derogatory way people are treated when they do ask questions about importing.

the thing is mostly the retailers on here are actually trying to protect you from a possible bad outcome..

they dont want to see you with a machine with some issues that they may then need to help you with... and may not want to help you

most i reckon are not going to care if you bring one in yourself they are just pointing out the pitfalls they have already dealt with many times importing equipment.

i reckon once a month someone posts up the idea of going it alone importing stuff. I am looking at getting something sent as well right now but it seems somewhat more drama than it might be worth.

i would consider getting a grinder sent rather than machines, much less to go wrong.

Sherro if you go down this path please report back we all want to here how it goes, good or bad

[sherro]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Your statement is comprehensively incorrect. Changes are made to componentry, flow rates, group temperatures and in the case of the machine you seem to think you can avoid duty and GST on (presumably by doing something dodgy ), the European product does not comply in Australia at all until major changes are made.

Italian HX machines gererally run hot to manage high robusta content coffee. Australian importers modify them or have them modified by the manufacturer to suit our coffee and operating conditions.

My advice is to research and get some facts straight before presenting yourself as an authority.

Taken your advice and researched some facts. Is this what you are refering to?

http://www.sweetmarias.com/espresso_giotto/giotto_rocket_details.php


To the retailers- If the price is right I would be more than happy to buy locally. What is the price would I be paying on a Evolusion? PM me if you dont want it posted

[brett230873]

Re: Importing espresso machines

I think it would be more polite and prudent to send an email to all sponsors <---- over on the left. Not all of them live on/in this forum... Im sure they have other duties in keeping their businesses running (Those Ferrari dont polish themselves... ;D : ).

Your statement is comprehensively incorrect. Changes are made to componentry, flow rates, group temperatures and in the case of the machine you seem to think you can avoid duty and GST on (presumably by doing something dodgy  ), the European product does not comply in Australia at all until major changes are made.

Italian HX machines gererally run hot to manage high robusta content coffee. Australian importers modify them or have them modified by the manufacturer to suit our coffee and operating conditions.

My advice is to research and get some facts straight before presenting yourself as an authority.

Taken your advice and researched some facts. Is this what you are refering to?

http://www.sweetmarias.com/espresso_giotto/giotto_rocket_details.php


To the retailers- If the price is right I would be more than happy to buy locally. What is the price would I be paying on a Evolusion? PM me if you dont want it posted

[TC]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Significant changes to the wiring, switches, some changes within the body and the requirement for Australian specific parts from the Australian importer. In addition, the machine will not be set for Australian coffee- as previously advised.

Taken your advice and researched some facts. Is this what you are refering to?

http://www.sweetmarias.com/espresso_giotto/giotto_rocket_details.php

[sarcastica] Yes, thats right. It describes exactly what I said in my earlier post as quoted above : [/sarcastica]

Damn....fonts dont work 

Sherro. As you choose to ignore the information provided, you will be best to go it alone and do your own thing.

Regardless of being in the "airline industry" (please not at the pointy end  :-/), unless you do something illegal, you, like the rest of us, will be subject to import duty and GST on entry into Australia as the machine is valued at over $1k. You will also have a machine which is not tuned to Australian coffee.

Keep in mind also that bargain priced used grey imports sell poorly here as well. Astute CSers these days want purchase details and this is factored into the price theyre willing to pay. One CSer has already learned this in the last few days.

What is the price would I be paying on a Evolusion? PM me if you dont want it posted

Ahh. Reverse auction!! I bid $10000  8-)

[betterathome]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Hmm, if you bring it in as "luggage", and excess luggage costs a fair bit, if the machine has been opened, and used, it no longer has its full value for duty purpose becasue it cant be valued or sold as new. We actually have very little duty on appliances, and its 10% GST as a worst case.
At that price, if you didnt want it, there is always Ebay.
There are differernt markets for different consumers, with different budgets, and different levels of attention they seek in the "buying experience" and pay accordingly. For some people its tax deductible for their office, for some its not, its pure after tax dollars for home (like me).
Some people are worried about warranties, thinking 15 in 100 will fail (would you buy an item with 15% failure rate?), some people take the approach 3 in 100 will fail. It would be interesting to know the failure rate of some of these machines down to a brand and model specific number, and what actually fails and the cost to repair in time and materials. Espresso machines are fairly basic if not automatic, that is why some 30 year old machines are still working fine, and many parts (except for cosmetic parts) are interchangeble across brands / generic.
Id buy one at that price just to have a good look inside, ..... Im sure many other people wouldnt .... for various reasons.

Pity my plane trips are limited to Asia.

Id love for someone to document their experience with the lid of the machine, and all the cost details.

I dont have problems with the distributors or their pricing, it is a choice they have, they dont have a moral obligation to sell cheap, they work to a market model that works for them. Some also sell large machines to restaurants and supply coffee regularly(coffee to restaraunts = $$$$) some only sell small machines to consumers and little coffee for extra $$, some just sell machines. As the installed base of prosumer machines grow, some will make more money out of servicing than selling new machines, some not.

Market forces will decide, if youre selling water in the desert and it starts to rain, better learn to sell umbrellas.

A Giotto Evoluzione for $1950, Id get one just to have a look inside.

Maybe we need a couple of specific threads, one on freight and duties to import with facts, figures and experiences, and another thread for the technical inclined about specific differences between local machines and European "old world, new world".

[shapeshifter]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Just to throw a comment in  ;D

I can right now bring in a Rocket Giotto Evoluzione for $2500 + $300 shipping and still be $800 better off than buying from Australia.

Sorry forgot to take off the VAT which is about 20% so that would take it over $1000 better off.

These are machines designed to be sent to us by the way, they ship from Italy to all over the world and you pick what voltage you want.

Sure there is still the warranty issue, yes there is a 1yr warranty but it has to be sent back at the customers expense with a 4-6 week turn around.  Would I personally worry about warranty, probably not, thats what I have a genius electronics engineer for  ;D

Just saying...

Oh and forgot the last comment...

Would I prefer buy here, from one of the CS sponsors Id say yes every time BUT $1000 is a hell of a lot of money to save.

[betterathome]

Re: Importing espresso machines

I have the same dilema, yes we can do things, eat less fat, exercise more, watch less TV,  import a machine and save some bucks. But few people actually do it, so the market defaults to buy local for most consumers. Id love to buy a machine locally, but my next one will be used if the price is right either off the foum or Ebay, or imported new, this is due to current financial constraints. Would I do it to save $400, no ....... to save $1000 yes .......

We have little competition in Australia, with most brands only having one distributor. In Europe its different the next country is a few 100kms away, and so is the next distributor for the same brand who wants to move machines.

But some brands are competively priced locally, and some are not, its up to the distributor who has identified a segment and has built  their  "brand" and demographic, and  will adjust to the market as it changes.

[cksyd]

Re: Importing espresso machines

The last three comments point out the relative merits and disadvantages of doing this.

Back in January, Attilio made a great statement -

The bottom line is, a very very very very very small number of people will always want to import something privately and they will. Thats it! If they want to, by all means do so! And let the rest of us get on with the realities of life and please stop making this topic seem like its super important or somehow shows that something is rotten in the espresso machine industry......because it isnt.

So if you want to go solo and import your own (which you now all know I did with a grinder) then just do it.

Dont come here looking for someone to hold your hand :.

There will always be people on both sides of the fence pointing out the obvious (and sometimes strange :-?) and that is not going to help YOU, but only serve to fragment this community.

YOU work out the relative pros and cons and then YOU decide whether this is the right move for you.

Be one of Attilios mentioned people or if you dont have the cajones, then shut up.

/rant

[shapeshifter]

Re: Importing espresso machines

cksyd, I dont know that it fragments anyone, I think it just points out that there definitely are two sides and gives people the information that there are options.

I have to say that the option I gave above doesnt actually apply to me in reality, the machine I am looking at at present once Ive had a play and decide yes it is what I want, Ill be buying from one of the CS sponsors, the price might be a little bit higher than importing but not enough to look at any other option

[betterathome]

Re: Importing espresso machines

You are correct,
quote" the price might be a little bit higher than importing but not enough to look at any other option ",  and this price difference will vary from person to person, one persons little (cheap) is another persons lots (expensive).

So that people can work the cost of ownership if they follow that path, a bit of "myth busting" is invloved.

The focus on what the thread asks and that is how hard is it to import a machine and what is invloved in importing it and getting it up and running on the kitchen bench.

1- exact cost of the process (e.g.purchase, freight, GST, duty)
2-specific differences between local and imported versions of machines (e.g.power cord and switch, or also elements and pumps (GREATLY doubt elements and pumps), 220 vs 230 vs 240V, forget the 110V.

It has already been established, and isnt argued by anyone that you dont get local warranty support if you import your own, but can get it fixed by non agent repairer based on time and material, like any product outisde a warranty period.

Adjusted for local conditions eg robusto vs arabica ..... hmmm so if I change my bean blend or supplier one morning I have to get the machine re-adjusted ?



Oh, and on the grinder front, easy import becasue they fall into the weight limit that is covered by the postal service, and is under $1000, so delivered to your door. Coffee machines are usually over 20kg, most countries wont send items over 20kg as normal postal item, varies from country to country, so most large machines would be couriered hence the $270 freight cost. Yes, I have imported several top end audio amplifiers, heavy units moded from the service manual to the AU version :-)

It can be competition from grey market that causes price drops which doesnt exist in our market, it can be competition between brands that cause price drops (take market share) it can be new products that compare favourably that cause price drops.
I dont think Harvey Norman are worried about people importing their own TVs, possibly more worried about LOCAL competitors with the same brand or comparable brand at a lower price

I think people should not criticize importers who have identified a market segment and price and created a machine to suit that, the "prosumer". This thread will not cause importers to drop prices. They have a right to charge retailers what they like, I feel sympathy for retailers who get the "price match" end of the stick from consumers.

[TC]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Guys,

This will be my last post in this thread as I have tired of beating my head against the wall. The pitfalls of doing it yourself have been largely ignored and/or simplified with factually incorrect opinions by others who might not know that much (or nothing) about espresso machines, little if anything about importing and have yet to attempt the process.

Pros:

• You can and will most likely save some money.

Cons- just to highlight a few:

• Machines get damaged in transit all the time. There are frequent writeoffs. Is your freight really insured and what happens in the event of a claim which will need to be processed in the country of origin? Often insurance ends once the goods land anyway. What happens if its damaged at the airport or docks or by the courier in transit to you?
• You will be liable for GST and import duty
• You will most likely have to deal with a freight forwarder at this and and will need to factor up to $500 per import to do that.
• All warranty support is overseas
• Zero after sales support
• Your machine may not comply in Australia which may affect insurance in the event of an accident. In the case of the Evoluzione, specific Australian parts are required to modify the electricals to comply. It will then need to be tuned to suit our coffee.
• Your machine may have parts specific to the market you purchased from and those parts if required will need to be sourced from overseas as well
• Your machine will be tuned to suit the coffee of the region of its origin. In italy for example, this means up to 50% robusta and the need for a hot running group. You cannot buy an Australian machine in Italy.
• You will need to pay someone who has the expertise and inclination to tune the machine to suit Australian conditions. Factor in at least 2 and up to 10 hours Scace calibration. The dodgy repair bloke you need to use most likely doesnt have one, has never seen one and wouldnt know what it does nor how to use it anyway. :
• Lower resale value in the event of you being unhappy- unless you can find a gullible eBay boffin to buy the machine. One CSer has faced this scenario this week when trying to sell his grey import. CSers will want to know where it came from and expect supporting evidence.

Facts are that if you want to convert a machine to work well here, it will cost you and most probably, many hundreds of dollars. You will still be left with a machine of lower value.

Australia is a very big country and for this reason, it means that we really need a support network close to purchasers. This means in most cases, importers need to appoint dealers and they need to be allowed a margin to provide service/s on behalf of the importers.  When you screw your supporting dealer on price, it has no effect on the importer. He still sells a machine at his price.

Were not around the corner from the next country. We import small volumes and pay the same freight forwarder cost be it one machine or a whole container of them. We pay huge freight compared to Europe and the US.

We are on very shaky ground here. As an example, lets do this with cars. Imagine the one and only BMW importer/reseller is in Sydney and you decide you want one. This situation exists due to a grey import market. Your car breaks down but must be returned to Sydney for all service and warranty support. Would you buy one when you live in Perth?

These threads are pushing us towards the importer reseller model. This means support will also be at the importer.

We can compete with EU prices and would do it by purchasing EU machines and using a logistics company in the EU to ship. Wed need a part time dude in Italy to deal with the occasional (read zero) machine which was shipped back for a warranty repair. This would allow us to sell in Australia but sidestep all of the Australian specific requirements for warranty and service. Is that what we want?

I see and sell to excited clients each week and the overwhelming majority require after sales support with the espresso process and/or niggles with the machine- no matter how much they thought theyd be right when they purchased.

So where to from here?

If you want to take the risk and do it, then do it- but dont call or write asking for your hand to be held with free advice, support, nor costings, nor anything else because by your choice, you are on your own.

Chris

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: Importing espresso machines

I reckon that I may just have covered that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

So there is not really a problem with importing the machines (warranty issues aside) the problem is finding an Australian Tec that will adjust it to suit our conditions

I realise Chris answered this immediately after it was posted but its worth going another opinion:

Wrong. There is more to this than "adjustments" and service providers generally repair problems, they dont modify the internal design and build of machines from the way they have been built and in most cases would not know what the design and build differences are. They certainly wouldnt waste time trying to make up and replace a wiring harness or method of wiring, wouldnt know what wiring changes there are between a euro spec and Oz spec machines, and are not privy to mechanical changes within the machines that make them perform in a different way to same looking machines built for a different market.

This of course is irrespective of where the design and build mods are made, on the production line or by the importer.


Hope that helps.

A.

PS Chris just above wrote :...These threads are pushing us towards the importer reseller model. This means support will also be at the importer...."

This is where the dealer and service support network  disappears...retail clients will then buy direct from importers, and when they need service, they return the machine to a central location irrespective of where they are which usually means back to the importer. You save money when buying, then you lose it in transport costs & insurance costs or even replacement costs if the equipent is written off and not insured during transit, not to mention the inconvenience and time taken when equipment goes out of area  when you need service but cant get it locally. And of course your after sales support is zippo.

Buying new equipment in the 2 to 3 thou dollar price point is not like throwing a couple of hundred dollars through evil auction sites, and private importation of such is only for a minute proportion of the client base. The vast majority need and choose to have a dealer network in place for support but unfortunately, threads like these make is seem like there is some kind of evil espresso machine industry conspiracy thing happening that is trying to screw money out of retail clients and that self importation is the nirvana to aspire to.....when Nothing could be further from the truth and most people need to feel, touch, hear, and see their 2 to 3 thou investment performing in front of them before taking the plunge.

Think carefully about what you are wishing for, then you make the choice.

[Thundergod]

Re: Importing espresso machines

There were no CS sponsors in Sydney back in the old days when I bought my machine and grinder.

I ended up "importing" my equipment from Melbourne after purchasing from Talk Coffee.

the overwhelming majority require after sales support with the espresso process and/or niggles with the machine

dont call or write asking for your hand to be held with free advice, support

Chris was always available by phone to help me get through the "niggles" stage.

Im glad I didnt have to pay the cost of calling Italy (and brushing up hard on my smattering of Italian).

[cksyd]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Hey Sherro,

As I said, do what you want.

Coming to a commercial website and asking those questions will never get you the answers you want. Nor will it get the hand holding you seem to desperately require.

FYI, I bought my Vibiemme Domobar Super from Coffeparts, a site sponsor.

Chris

[sherro]

Re: Importing espresso machines

Hey Sherro,

As I said, do what you want.

Coming to a commercial website and asking those questions will never get you the answers you want. Nor will it get the hand holding you seem to desperately require.

FYI, I bought my Vibiemme Domobar Super from Coffeparts, a site sponsor.

Chris

What??????

Don’t want hand holding, just want answers to questions. The reason you join a forum