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  • Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

    Hi,

    I am in search of a new project.

    I currently have a Giotto Premium that I have converted to PID and adjusted the thermosyphon to stablise the temp. Very happy with it but now I want more.

    I have started to look for a project machine to try out a few ideas that I have.

    If I am trying to make the best possible coffee, are dual boilers better than HX?

    The reason I ask is that with the Giotto, I can hold within 1 deg C on a pour but it requires skill and not doable if you pouring 6 in a row.

    I would prefer to pick up an old machine and fix it up, electronics are not a problem.

    What would be a good starting point? 2 or 3 group heads would be nice.

    best regards

    Lee

  • #2
    Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

    Sounds like what youre aiming for is temperature stability and repeatability.

    Two ways of going about this:

    PID-controlled closed loop - boiler, thermosyphon and group. (various dual boiler domestic and commercial machines)

    PID-controlled saturated group. (commercial/GS3 LM, Synesso, Slayer)

    Temperature stable multi-group machines tend to have smallish-volume PID-controlled boilers fed from a normal HX in the steam boiler. Have you thought about implementing something like this in your Giotto? Could be done...

    Once thats sorted, then theres the question of pressure profiling 8-)

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    • #3
      Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

      Buy a high-end lever machine and make great coffee.

      Greg

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      • #4
        Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

        Thanks Rick and Greg,

        Running out of space inside the Giotto, that is why I am looking for a new machine. I can make additional boilers if needed but need somewhere to fit them, then the problems of modifying or buying a new group head if I want saturated.

        Greg, what did you have in mind and why is it better?

        thanks

        Lee

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        • #5
          Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

          I am with Greg, a high end commercial lever transforms the coffee experience - and largely by simplifying it!

          My Izzo Pompeii allows me to consistently make god shots, my wife can consistently make god shots on it, i suspect our 8 year old son could as well.

          Big levers are much cleaner to use than pump machines as well.

          I really suspect they are not what you are after though. They are very simple in design, almost no electronics, nothing to fiddle with and no real potential for improvement - you sound like you want a project.

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          • #6
            Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

            if you can make your own boilers, why not make the whole machine?

            http://www.espresso-restorations.com/P1.html

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            • #7
              Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

              One of these.
              Not this one though, its my project

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              • #8
                Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                Project--electronic.
                Coffee--lever.

                Even spring lever machines (like the Izzo) are very controllable--pre-infusion and pressure being the main ones. There is no vibration from a motor or pump and no noise. I suspect the decreasing pressure as the spring expands helps the extraction but I have no evidence.

                As Galumay says, fantastic shots are so easy that they become the norm.

                When I was in Italy last year, all the best coffees I had came from lever machines, and I now routinely get better shots than through any of my previous pump machines.

                Greg

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                • #9
                  Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                  It sounds like you have an opportunity to make something really unique..
                  There absolutely have to be better ways to brew coffee than those that have already been done, or at least more interesting ways... Pumps are excellent, But theres definite scope for customizations.

                  Think Several PIDs, tones of temp sensors, active groups and a metric ton of brass & copper. Throw an automotive ECU-style readout/laptop interface in there to control & monitor everything.

                  Id still keep the machine "elemental" on the exterior, like the vintage brass and copper Imesa or Electra machines, but thats a personal thing.


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                  • #10
                    Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                    Ahh, just what I am looking for PeteL and Ronin, I am keen to make my own, I was just trying to find some bits but I will spend some time reading espresso-restorations

                    Btw Ronin, what model is that a picture of?

                    many thanks

                    Lee

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                      Control is great, but it seems like flat temperature and pressure curves are no longer the holy grail they once were - as greg and galumay have said theres a reason for the recent resurgence in lever popularity.

                      I just finished reading through the 24 pages of discussion regarding the Bezzera Strega on HB - fascinating stuff!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                        Originally posted by 5F5E505F5241565D330 link=1329112945/9#9 date=1329206478
                        Ahh, just what I am looking for PeteL and Ronin, I am keen to make my own, I was just trying to find some bits but I will spend some time reading espresso-restorations

                        Btw Ronin, what model is that a picture of?

                        many thanks

                        Lee
                        That is a La Marzocco GS. First of the paddles I think. About 35 yrs old and is not in that condition now. Completely striped, cleaned and currently re wiring.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                          I am jealous as hell, beautiful machine....

                          I have designed and build a high tech roaster, detailed on another site, can post a link if ok?

                          Ready for a new challenge, anyone know where I can buy a Marzocco group head?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                            Espresso Parts in the states list all the LM group parts (group casting: MZ_202) but it will cost you a small fortune

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Imagine for a moment that cost was not important....

                              Espresso parts are expensive. Freight is a killer from USA. I recently was pointed to a EU site which looks promising.

                              You might be better off looking for an old but complete machine to get parts from. Could save money, give you ideas and still able to customize it.

                              Mine will be almost standard except for PID controls. Im even keeping the manual water inlet valve. I want to be more involved in the process manually, not electronically. Maybe a lever next ;D

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