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  • choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    hey all, first post so be gentle,

    I am opening a new coffee shop and have the choice of a Synesso Sabre or a La Marzocco Linea both Three group. Ive been or a FB70 for a while now and love it but from what ive read and heard the Sabre is a very good machine. Advice needed pros and cons appreciated. Blend ill be using is a nine bean blend med to dark roast will also be putting through some S/O

  • #2
    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    The Linea is the same machine as your FB70 with different panels, so you already know exactly what youre getting there. I would suggest having some hands-on time with the Sabre to see how you like it, everything else is just academic - they are very similarly specd machines.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

      Hello there.

      Here is a genuine and gentle if technical response then 

      I have various cafe clients using FB70 and I have to honestly say their resulting coffees arent any better than other cafes putting the same blends through good HX machines that cost far less but apparently dont have the same kind of internet cred attached.

      Dont have any clients using the other so cant comment there.

      A "nine bean" blend?  Only my opinion, but at the average proportions of each single origin that goes into making up the blend OR, after perhaps say the 3 or so origins in the blend used in major proportions to give the base, the proportions of the remaining 6 or so origins used will not in such small proportions add any character that can be discerned.  Does having more origins in a blend make it a better coffee, and what advantage then is there in selecting a "nine bean blend" other than if you think the idea of it will be a useful marketing tool to draw clients to your new business?

      Will it be a "medium" roast, or a "dark" roast....as it cant be both at the same time and there is precious little "room for movement" inbetween unless your roaster supplier is using very technical roasting gear and can actually stop the roasts at very precise, repeatable intervals? I generally find there is a very very fine line between the type of roast that gives a very nice coffee,  and one with burnt character coming through that gives rise to bitterness from the style of roast, and "dark" roast atleast here in Australia speaks to me about burnt coffee. The coffee can still be brown (rather than black and oily) and already have taken on the beginnings of that bitter character.  "Dark" also results in the good characters in the coffee (the ones prized in this market) being cooked out leaving a rather muddy indistinct character, in addition to adding the component of bitterness.

      If you decide on a "dark" roast what then is the need for trendy expensive coffee machines and complicated blends using expensive high grown origins except again, if you intend to use the the idea of them as a marketing tool to try and draw clients.

      If youre just starting out and are on a shoestring budget, that (budget) will not preclude you from making really good coffee on any number of much less expensive equipment, and using less complicated freshly roasted blends made with good expertise. The funds you save by not splurging unnecessarily on the most expensive equipment at first will go into your working capital & help you pay your bills  and stay viable after you kick off. 

      This is not a facetious reply to your question rather, a very serious one to help you question (to a positive conclusion in your individual business venture) the set up, costings and type of image you require and want to portray and what you hope to achieve from it all.

      Hope that helps

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

        We need vote-up buttons here - Fresh_coffees advice would have been cheap at $2000 if you paid for the consultancy. CS is a bargain!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

          hey all thank you for the responses,

          I think I need to explain a little more to get info required.
          Ive been working on a FB70 with the bean that I will be using in my new shop for the last three years and initially I also thought a nine bean blend wasnt necessary but after the consistency Ive experienced in the cup both as black and milk based I feel its the best option (I say med to dark roast because I believe its a med roast and so does my supplier but some of my friends who are commercial roasters will call it a dark roast, bit of a ongoing joke). For the more educated taste buds I will have single origins which I will rotate.
          Having been with the supplier I use for almost five years now I have a great relationship with them and they have give me the options of a LM linea, Synesso Sabre, Dalla Corte or a Unic. The latter two are still good machines and the dalla corte might even be a better machine for my needs with the individually programmable head temps, but the LM and synnesso have the cred to give the business some rep on the back of a well known machine brand.

          I know LMs quite well and love them very much but i havent been able to play on a synesso and dont know what their downfalls are, are they stable, do they overheat, do they hold pressure well, will they extract both darker and lighter roasts equally well and what are the general opinion on the machine overall

          all opinions very welcome love reading about peoples opinions and experiences this is truly a great site thankyou to all the sponsors and people that make this site so awesome 


          Comment


          • #6
            Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

            i think the sabre might have indiv boilers for each group too...

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

              Originally posted by 382521242F2F4A0 link=1332216562/5#5 date=1332335000
              i think the sabre might have indiv boilers for each group too...
              I think youll find the saber has 2 boilers. The hydra has individual group boilers.

              Id probably go with the La Marzocco as its what you know well. The synesso gives different flavours. Not bad at all but different. What does your roaster use? If LM Id go with that, if synesso Id go with that. The roaster chooses the machine they use for a reason

              Hope it helps

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                Have you been around to try coffee from different shops that use the blend you are using. Obviously ability will vary but it might help you make a decision on what machine you like the blend on.

                I have used a Linea, Sabre and current generation Hyrda and each has there pros and cons. Personally I find the LM machines to be better finished then the Synesso machines that I have worked on. The blend you use might work better on a HX machine so why not spend a little bit of money buying coffees from other shops before forking out a lot on a machine that you will have to live with day in and day out.

                The company supplying your beans may have various machines you can try their beans on too.

                Best of luck with the new business venture.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                  If you care about brew temperature stability then choose Synesso as it is capable of supplying brew water to the top of the coffee puck to better than +/- 0.5 deg C.  The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler as soon as brewing commences and this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically, whereas the Synesso uses a heat exchanger to pre-heat brew water.  Some Lineas dont even have PID temp controllers while all Synessos do.

                  If you care about being able to set different brew temps on each group then choose Synesso as each group has its own boiler with its own set point temperature. The Linea has a single brew boiler for 2 and 3 group machines and two brew boilers on 4 grp models.

                  If you care what temperature the hot water is for long blacks (and tea) then choose Synesso  because it has a valve to mix cold water into the steam boiler water.  The Linea just supplies hot water at the same temperature as the steam boiler.

                  If you want some degree of pre-infusion then choose Synesso.  It uses a ruby restrictor jet to achieve pre-infusion.  Some Lineas have the ability to cycle the brew pump briefly to achieve pre-wetting of the puck but it doesnt do much.  Others dont have any pre-infusion although I believe you can add a restrictor jet. 

                  Its not really fair to compare the Linea or FB70 with any Synesso, you need to be looking at GB or Strada models.

                  A heat exchanger machine (ie 50 year old technology) will not suit a coffee blend "better" than a multiboiler machine unless the coffee somehow, magically, works better with over-heated brew water last shot, under-heated water this shot and who knows what temp water for the next shot. 

                  Graeme

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                    Originally posted by 061303410 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
                    A heat exchanger machine (ie 50 year old technology) will not suit a coffee blend "better" than a multiboiler machine unless the coffee somehow, magically, works better with over-heated brew water last shot, under-heated water this shot and who knows what temp water for the next shot. 

                    Graeme
                    Sorry Graeme, but I take exception to your statement as it implies that a multi boiler machine will ALWAYS be superior to a HX machine. Whilst your statement may broadly describe HX machines from 50 years ago, times have changed and a well callibrated HX machine can be beautifully thermostable. We need to be mindful that a PID is merely operating as a digital temperature controller as a pressurestat indirectly does. The critical factors remain the same in that no number of PID controllers will save a poorly designed machine.

                    Statements such as these persuade CRers that it must be PID and dual boiler and that is simply not true. I have seen rubbish dual boiler machines and rubbish HX machines and the badly calibrated PID machines can take far longer to tame than a well designed but badly configured HX machine. We have rejected both PID dual boiler and HX range candidates.

                    I think its very important to keep it real here by not spreading myths and mistruths. A great HX machine will make brilliant coffee and will do so consistently- as will a great PID multiboiler (given the usual caveats). CSers and cafes put the proof in the cup every day.

                    As for the rest of the post, nup, nup and nup- but Ill leave that for someone else.

                    Chris

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                      That why some of the most wanted machines uses a HX system !!

                      Like my own Kees van der Westen; Mirage duette Veloce !!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                        Originally posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
                        The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler as soon as brewing commences and this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically
                        I call bollocks on that. Where is your research? I have scaced many a Linea and they are rock solid.

                        Originally posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
                        If you care about being able to set different brew temps on each group then choose Synesso as each group has its own boiler with its own set point temperature.
                        Again, bollocks. The OP is considering a Sabre, which is a dual boiler volumetric machine equivalent to the LMs.

                        *Edit - This is incorrect, my apologies you are right. The sabre has individual group boilers as per Cyncra.

                        Originally posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
                        Some Lineas have the ability to cycle the brew pump briefly to achieve pre-wetting of the puck but it doesnt do much.
                        Wrong. Mains pressure pre-infusion can be enabled on all volumetric Lineas.

                        Originally posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
                        Some Lineas dont even have PID temp controllers while all Synessos do.
                        Technically true but irrelevant as the OP is talking about new machines, it would have to be one of the first Linea / FB70s imported to Australia to be still fitted with a thermostat.

                        Originally posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
                        Its not really fair to compare the Linea or FB70 with any Synesso, you need to be looking at GB or Strada models.
                        All kinds of wrong. The comparison is sensible and valid.

                        -Rick

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                          Hi GRB

                          You wouldnt be Graeme the tech from 5 Senses would you?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                            Originally posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
                            GRB wrote on 31. Mar 2012 at 22:26:
                            The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler as soon as brewing commences and this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically


                            I call bollocks on that. Where is your research? I have scaced many a Linea and they are rock solid.
                            So why have LM moved on to the GB and then Strada?  Schomer and LM worked together to improve temperature stability. Synesso also took up the mantle and now Slayer have also tried to improve temp stability further.  I guess you think they have been wasting their time.  The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler while brewing.  That aint a good way to keep a boiler thermally stable.  Also brew water exits the boiler and passes through the brew solenoid including about 2 pieces of small copper tubing external to the boiler before it re-enters the group.  This is not a good way to retain heat in the brew path.  LM addressed this issue by mounting the brew solenoids directly onto the group caps (Pierro caps I think they are referred to as).

                            Originally posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
                            Again, bollocks. The OP is considering a Sabre, which is a dual boiler volumetric machine equivalent to the LMs.

                            *Edit - This is incorrect, my apologies you are right. The sabre has individual group boilers as per Cyncra.
                            Rick, given the aggressive tone I am not sure how genuine your "apology" is mate?  Also since you dont even know that a Sabre has a boiler for each group I wonder how much you really know about machine designs?

                            Originally posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
                            Wrong. Mains pressure pre-infusion can be enabled on all volumetric Lineas.
                            Can you let us know how thats done please?  I have only seen the option where the pump can be pulsed and the brew solenoid opened momentarily.  I am sure the OP would like to know too.  I dont know what the point of the pre-infusion mode(s) on the linea is anyway because as soon as you brew on another group the pump turns on and you have lost the pre-infusion.  So if pre-infusion is important then you need to use a restricting jet or have a separate pump for each group head as LM and Synesso offer on the higher models.

                            Originally posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
                            Technically true but irrelevant as the OP is talking about new machines, it would have to be one of the first Linea / FB70s imported to Australia to be still fitted with a thermostat.
                            My apologies.  It is not clear to me that the OP is talking exclusively about new machines.  LM are so "rebuildable" there is good value in purchasing used.

                            Originally posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
                            GRB wrote on 31. Mar 2012 at 22:26:
                            Its not really fair to compare the Linea or FB70 with any Synesso, you need to be looking at GB or Strada models.


                            All kinds of wrong. The comparison is sensible and valid.
                            I disagree, there are significant technical advantages of  Synesso Sabre over LM Linea. Among them being multi boilers not dual, inherently more temperature stable due to brew path, ability to set different temps on each group, not to mention ergonomic steaming levers, cool touch steam wands,  different if not better pre-infusion, temp controllable hot water from tea spout. As I said before, the OP needs to compare a Sabre with a higher level LM if these features are important.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                              Originally posted by 4C797473475B777E7E7D7D180 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
                              GRB wrote on 31. Mar 2012 at 22:26:
                              A heat exchanger machine (ie 50 year old technology) will not suit a coffee blend "better" than a multiboiler machine unless the coffee somehow, magically, works better with over-heated brew water last shot, under-heated water this shot and who knows what temp water for the next shot.

                              Graeme


                              Sorry Graeme, but I take exception to your statement as it implies that a multi boiler machine will ALWAYS be superior to a HX machine. Whilst your statement may broadly describe HX machines from 50 years ago, times have changed and a well callibrated HX machine can be beautifully thermostable. We need to be mindful that a PID is merely operating as a digital temperature controller as a pressurestat indirectly does. The critical factors remain the same in that no number of PID controllers will save a poorly designed machine.
                              Its simply a fact that a HX machine is technically inferior to a PID controlled multi-boiler machine.  A single pressure stat in a big steam boiler cannot control brew temperature from multiple group heads in the way that a PID controller multi-boiler can.  I guess we will just have to disagree on this point.  Comparing a p-stat to a PID temp controller is like comparing a carburettor and points to a multi-point fuel injection system with engine management computer! I am curious as to why you think LM, Synesso, Slayer, Expobar, Kees vander Westen  etc all use PID controllers?

                              BTW what poorly designed machine are we talking about?

                              Originally posted by 4C797473475B777E7E7D7D180 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
                              Statements such as these persuade CRers that it must be PID and dual boiler and that is simply not true. I have seen rubbish dual boiler machines and rubbish HX machines and the badly calibrated PID machines can take far longer to tame than a well designed but badly configured HX machine. We have rejected both PID dual boiler and HX range candidates.
                              No thats not my intention.  The OP is clearly requesting info on serious commercial equipment for his/her cafe.  Everyone knows there are ways to mitigate the temperature instability of HX machines.
                              You may have rejected machines for domestic use ( which ones BTW?) - have you rejected any commercial PID/multi-boiler machines for cafe use?

                              Also I dont think you need to protect CSers.  They are mostly adults and can probably work out that they dont need a GS3 to make decent coffee at home.  Hell Id like to drive to work in a Merc or Porsche but I can only afford a mazda 3 so Ill just have to live with that.

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