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  • #16
    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Originally posted by 0D2122272011194E0 link=1332216562/12#12 date=1333331877
    Hi GRB

    You wouldnt be Graeme the tech from 5 Senses would you?
    Yeah but not anymore!  I left the coffee industry over two years ago.  But I did work for Five Senses for ~ 2 years in which time I serviced, repaired and rebuilt many machines, the vast majority (over 80%) being LM Linea and Synesso.  I think this experience qualifies me to make the odd statement about the differences between machines.

    Why do you ask?

    Graeme

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

      Im not saying the design of the Linea is flawless and represents the paragon of technology, dont put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that statements such as
      Originally posted by 7E6B7B390 link=1332216562/13#13 date=1333447724
      this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically
      are just patently false. I guess youre saying that (using your reasoning here) all LM saturated groups prior to the Pierro cap GB5/FB80s and now Stradas are rubbish?

      I have never seen more than a 1 degree C fluctuation when measured at the group of a Linea. If thats dramatic to you, then yeah Ill eat my words. If the PID is tuned correctly, boiler thermal mass and the thermosyphonic design of the group castings (yes thats why they are high up) will take care of the rest.

      Originally posted by 7E6B7B390 link=1332216562/13#13 date=1333447724
      Rick, given the aggressive tone I am not sure how genuine your "apology" is mate?
      I dont like being wrong, and I was. Fact is, your original post was so full of hyperbole that I momentarily forgot my dont react to stupid things people say on the internet policy and didnt do my fact checking. I have never seen inside a Sabre.

      Originally posted by 7E6B7B390 link=1332216562/13#13 date=1333447724
      Can you let us know how thats done please?  I have only seen the option where the pump can be pulsed and the brew solenoid opened momentarily.
      Hold down left hand single shot button on group one, with the machine off. Switch the main switch to position one. The LED on the continuous dose button should light, and pre-infusion is now enabled on that group. Repeat for the next group, but it will only work for the left two groups on a three group machine. I should also qualify my statement by saying there are some versions of the Gicar ROM that dont support pre-infusion, but that can be solved with updated ROM.

      Im not saying that Lineas are better than Sabres, or LM are better than Synesso or any other machine. Im saying that many of your criticisms are just not true in my experience, and the acceptance of the Linea as an industry workhorse bears that out.


      Comment


      • #18
        Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

        Originally posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
        Im not saying the design of the Linea is flawless and represents the paragon of technology, dont put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that statements such as GRB wrote Today at 18:08:
        this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically
        are just patently false. I guess youre saying that (using your reasoning here) all LM saturated groups prior to the Pierro cap GB5/FB80s and now Stradas are rubbish?

        I have never seen more than a 1 degree C fluctuation when measured at the group of a Linea. If thats dramatic to you, then yeah Ill eat my words. If the PID is tuned correctly, boiler thermal mass and the thermosyphonic design of the group castings (yes thats why they are high up) will take care of the rest.
        No I dont think Lineas are rubbish, just that a Sabre is better for the several reasons listed.

        Yes I take your point - "dramatic" was probably a bit over the top.  Relative to the temp stability of a GB or Strada or other multi-boiler machines the temp stability of a Linea is poor.  Relative to a HX machine it is fantastic!  It is not as good as a Sabre which is what I said originally.  There is no point entering into a discussion of measurement science but I will say that measuring temperature is not a trivial excercise even with a "Scace" device.  Data I have seen indicates that the "Scase" device is not as useful as actually putting a thermocouple on top of some actual coffee assuming all other parameters are controlled.  Not sure about the thermosyphonic effect - do you mean convection?  Linea boiler is pretty much an open cavity albeit with a large passage to the group - but I dont understand where the circuit is for a thermosyphon?

        Originally posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
        I have never seen inside a Sabre.
        And yet you posted in such a manner?  I dont get it.

        Originally posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
        Hold down left hand single shot button on group one,
        Yes thats what I was referring to in my original post.  Are you saying the pump doesnt come on in this mode?  Are there two modes, with and without pump? Does anyone actually use this feature?

        Originally posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
        Im not saying that Lineas are better than Sabres, or LM are better than Synesso or any other machine. Im saying that many of your criticisms are just not true in my experience, and the acceptance of the Linea as an industry workhorse bears that out.
        Yep and I didnt accuse you of that.  I objected to you objecting to my statement that it is
        Originally posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
        All kinds of wrong. The comparison is sensible and valid.
        You have read my initial post as a list of criticisms whereas  I wrote the post to describe the differences. 
        It is for the OP to decide whether those differences are "academic" but they are true differences.
           
        Whether it is an industry workhorse (which I dont dispute) is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP who simply wanted to know what the difference (pros and cons) between Linea and Sabre was.

        For the record I think fresh_coffee has posted the best overall response to the OP so far and I hope he/she takes that advice on board.

        Graeme

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

          Originally posted by 514454160 link=1332216562/15#15 date=1333450030
          Originally posted by 0D2122272011194E0 link=1332216562/12#12 date=1333331877
          Hi GRB

          You wouldnt be Graeme the tech from 5 Senses would you?
          Yeah but not anymore!  I left the coffee industry over two years ago.  But I did work for Five Senses for ~ 2 years in which time I serviced, repaired and rebuilt many machines, the vast majority (over 80%) being LM Linea and Synesso.  I think this experience qualifies me to make the odd statement about the differences between machines.

          Why do you ask?

          Graeme
          You know a lot about synesso. Your in Perth and your name. All things that linked in my mind to the retro fit you did to an Expobar Minore that I read about at 5 senses website.

          And I learnt some stuff about synessos.
          Nothing more, just curious

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

            Originally posted by 74414C4B7F634F46464545200 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
            I think its very important to keep it real here by not spreading myths and mistruths. A great HX machine will make brilliant coffee and will do so consistently- as will a great PID multiboiler (given the usual caveats). CSers and cafes put the proof in the cup every day.
            which HX Machine can do better or even equal with Synesso?

            see this Synesso Temperature Testing

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgVYSSIV0w&list=UU4R8-jMX7dQ-DANqAdbWM3A&index=6&feature=plcp

            cheers...

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

              Im declaring this thread a plant. The OP posted and then looked a day later and that was the last appearance here.

              Originally posted by 252B322224282E29470 link=1332216562/19#19 date=1333899989
              Originally posted by 74414C4B7F634F46464545200 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
              I think its very important to keep it real here by not spreading myths and mistruths. A great HX machine will make brilliant coffee and will do so consistently- as will a great PID multiboiler (given the usual caveats). CSers and cafes put the proof in the cup every day.
              which HX Machine can do better or even equal with Synesso?

              see this Synesso Temperature Testing
              Ok CSers everywhere. Come clean and admit here and now to bc that your coffee is rubbish because you do not own a Synesso.

              bc, if you think a line is a guarantee of good coffee, youre dreaming mate.

              I hearby admit my coffee must be bad because I have owned a number of HX machines.  I know this because bc told me so... :

              Ill also admit the same on behalf of every WBC competitor for the last few years.

              Lastly, Ill admit that bcs coffee is rubbish as well as he also has a HX machine.

              Anybody else want to fess up?  :-?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                I would think that a high volume cafe is slightly different than a home CSer Chris.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                  Originally posted by 1A36353037060E590 link=1332216562/21#21 date=1333921381
                  I would think that a high volume cafe is slightly different than a home CSer Chris.
                  Agreed. Would you prefer a goose on a Synesso or a bloke with talent on a well setup HX?  :-?

                  I am tiring of reading the recycled "its gotta be Synesso, LM Strada, Slayer etc or it couldnt possibly be good.

                  To requote Rick from above, its bollocks.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                    Depends on the barista behind the synesso beans used and my mood  . Ive had crap coffee from most machines including slayer, synesso, LM (not had anything off a strata as yet) and hx machines, but had more good stuff from high end machines in a cafe/espresso bar. Perhaps thats just Brisbane.
                    best hx coffee Ive had is at home on the expobar minore.

                    FWIW  baristas that compete that i know complain about the current machine being used. But they dont get a choice

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                      Graeme quote from above:

                      ............For the record I think Fresh_Coffee has posted the best overall response to the OP so far and I hope he/she takes that advice on board............End of quote


                      Thanks, appreciate that coming from someone who has been involved in the industry.


                      And for the rest of it if you will permit:

                      Some of these machines are capable enough to be termed " laboratory spec" equipment. If used by appropriately trained operators in their white lab coats, they may well deliver all the promises that seem to roll of everyones tongues in forums like this, if you have the Technical Officers in the Lab with the appropriate palates to judge the espresso (not the milks coffees).

                      But in the real world where you have very ordinary people driving the equipment, the resulting wet coffee is left to compete with that produced by any other good brand espresso machine especially HX type, driven by other ordinary people, and even the odd skilled operators.

                      Whats that mean?

                      It means the brands / models are hyped up so that they are on everyones lips as being the absolute pinnacle of wet coffee production, while in reality they are a marketing excercise used to try and win clients because of the equipment any particular cafe uses.

                      Its like if taxi operators started pushing they use only rolls royce or ferrari motor vehicles for their taxis, in the hope that clients will walk past all others to jump into theirs because they are so far technically advanced than other more run of the mill models.

                      And in the end you still get your ride from the airport to your business meeting, and it didnt mean a thing except, the taxi driver with the ferrari or rolls got your money.

                      A dose of reality please and in the end, the last couple of posts here from Talk Coffee really do reflect the reality of it all and that is that all the money in the world and the best fitout and the most expensive technically advanced espresso machines & grinders with all the internet cred, are not going to save you in a technical sense if you cant use it properly (or for that matter have the clientelle with a palate that can actually tell through the latte...).

                      But they have been turned into effective marketing tools. And while cafe owners think they have to show their target audience they care about the coffee by investing in such equipment, at the "appropriate" level of investment, they keep the importers and the manufacturers of said equipment laughing all the way to the bank.

                      And that has absolutely nothing to do with the coffee itself......and is one of the great examples of the BS mill in full swing.

                      Edit 1.
                      One actual example of this in my own locality:

                      Client has LM and Roburrs
                      Clients "Baristas" adopt the attitude apparently expected.
                      Client makes a big deal of using a special exclusive signature blend
                      Coffee comes in plain packets for appropriate level of secrecy exclusivity of course;

                      The reality:
                      a) the blend is nothing special;
                      b) Resulting espresso (as in black coffee) is bitter, muddy, indistinct (in a technical sense it has been over roasted) and what this means, is it wouldnt matter how good the components in the blend were before roasting;

                      BUT....the coffee is just strong enough to cut well through the milk to give a well balanced milk coffee (in terms of coffee to milk character) . What do most clients drink? Capps and lattes.

                      The "baristas" are good "milk artists"

                      What does this mean:
                      The espresso itself is below standard, the milks are fine. The cafe owner has created an aura of mystique, exclusive blend, "high end" brand equipment. The cafe as a busines goes well enough.

                      But the espresso itself is below par.......and what does the coffee has to do with it?

                      A good example of smoke and mirrors to get clients.

                      Could they be doing just as well if not better on the black coffees with a good HX machine....OF COURSE they could.

                      Edit 2
                      In my own locality, staff (baristas)  in these type cafes dont / wont enter the barista comps and appear to be insulated from the main stream. The barista comps seem to be populated by operators that really are interested in the coffee and in the main come from cafes where they mostly use.....HX machines....

                      And when they go back to their cafes, they take their journey in making better coffee, back to whatever equipment they are using, the attitude being they are trying to better their coffee making skills irrespective.

                      There is a large difference in attitude across the cafe industry.

                      Bottom line, choose whatever equipment you want but dont get real end quality in the cup (and all the different variables that entails) confused with brand iconism and image marketing.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                        Originally posted by 46737E794D517D74747777120 link=1332216562/20#20 date=1333919190
                        Anybody else want to fess up?
                        Yep, my coffee is rubbish, only reason I keep drinking the stuff is Im a masochist. ;D :

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                          no Jon, its because of th extra added character that your portion of sugar adds....now thats fessing up!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                            Originally posted by 0E3A2D3B20170B272E2E2D2D480 link=1332216562/26#26 date=1333931876
                            no Jon, its because of th extra added character that your portion of sugar adds....now thats fessing up!
                            I know, its true, but then Im a Philistine, seriously contemplating migrating to Italy. ;D

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                              Originally posted by 7A4F4245716D4148484B4B2E0 link=1332216562/20#20 date=1333919190
                              Ok CSers everywhere. Come clean and admit here and now to bc that your coffee is rubbish because you do not own a Synesso.

                              bc, if you think a line is a guarantee of good coffee, youre dreaming mate.

                              I hearby admit my coffee must be bad because I have owned a number of HX machines.  I know this because bc told me so... Roll Eyes

                              Ill also admit the same on behalf of every WBC competitor for the last few years.

                              Lastly, Ill admit that bcs coffee is rubbish as well as he also has a HX machine.

                              Anybody else want to fess up?  Huh

                              if you think you coffee is good, CS mamber will love to try, love to know coffee shop around sydney are you supply? ( HX Machine and 60kg+ a week )
                              i will try one day.

                              cheers.......

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

                                Originally posted by 706D6C71696B34323B020 link=1332216562/0#0 date=1332216562
                                20.03.2012 at 15:09:22 Mark & Quote Quote
                                hey all, first post so be gentle,

                                I am opening a new coffee shop and have the choice of a Synesso Sabre or a La Marzocco Linea both Three group.  Ive been or a FB70 for a while now and love it but from what ive read and heard the Sabre is a very good machine. Advice nee
                                i Own La marzocco Linea , LM is good but as you can have Options from yours Coffee suppler  i think Go to Synesso Sabre 


                                cheers...

                                Comment

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