affordable espresso machine for little coffee shop

[kopiireng]

hello guy's
i want to start business in coffee shop, what i need is affordable and durable comercial espresso machine.
any suggestions really appreciated.
my options right now is Astoria,bezzera,and vibiemme.
what i'm looking for is espresso machine with PID Controlled and Volumetric Dose, for consistency of espresso. unfortunately PID controlled only available on high price comercial machine start from 5k $ above. Volumetric Dose available on espresso machine start from 3k $
any information about the machine with PID and Volumetric dose for affordable price really appreciated.
thanks in advance

Best Regards

kopiireng

[TC]

A belated welcome kopiireng,

Looking through your history I see that 2 weeks ago you were struggling with your new Breville dual boiler. Now you are ready to start your own cafe!

FWIW, In Australia you will struggle to get any useful "robust" machine with $3k, nor multi boiler PID with $5k. More likely that these dollars will buy you someone else's clapped out ex. cafe machine.

I think you will likely have much to learn before you open your cafe. Get it wrong and you may well lose money faster than you have ever accumulated it.

So....baby steps

Chris

[kopiireng]

thank you chris for the reply

i know i'm still newbie on coffee industry, and i'm willing to learn from everyone. because i can't afford to pay franchise fee for coffee shop, my friends and family give me support to run coffee shop business from the scratch. my first machine is breville BDB, i'm starting to learn how the machine work, how to grind the coffee,dosing,tamping, brewing and steaming milk. then i learn about the coffee characteristic and met some barista and learn from them. fortunately i met one barista willing to join in my coffee shop and we can learn together and run the business. for the food i hire a cheff.
my plans sounds sloppy, but right now i'm still preparing my self to build my own coffee shop business. maybe i will open the cafe in february 2015. i still have time to catch up.
a senior barista told me that "do not follow your ego to buy expensive machine with lot of feature" in january i will meet this person again and start to learning deeply about cupping,manual brew,espresso machine and latte art

now i have spesific machine to pick up.
Bezzera B2009 or Astoria Tanya SAE2
but i'm still waiting a shot from someone who can point me to better machine with affordable price.


passion about coffee is not enough, business needs detailed plan.
i have passion now i'm working with the plan

regards

kopiireng

[kopiireng]

If i want to start business in coffee shop, anyone would suggest me what machine i should take?

Regards

Kopiireng

[chokkidog]

Welcome to CS kopiireng.

Where are you located? What machines are available to you, other than those you have already mentioned?

You need to get out and about and see what other cafés in your area are using then research those machines.

A machine from a local supplier with a good reputation for after sales service and parts inventory is where you should be looking.

If anyone gives you direct advice like you have already received..... such as the ego/$$$machine comment, find out what they mean by $$$$machine.

Are they talking about a circa $20,000 Synesso, Slayer, Spirit, Strada 3 group? You won't need a 3 group and you don't need one of those machines.

So if you want a reliable machine spend $6,000 >>>$9,000 on a 2 group. Don't get hung up just on machines tho'; you have yet to mention grinder....

but the same criteria applies to choosing a grinder as to the machine.... you get what you pay for.

It seems to me that you need to educate yourself about coffee and work out where your place in the scheme of things might be.

A franchise seems to be your ultimate goal..... franchises often work on a 'lowest common denominator' or a 'one size fits all' philosophy,

rather than excellence. Perhaps you are looking at things upside down?

Making coffee is not the hardest part of running a business so my advice is to get some experience under your belt so that you're

not operating under the principle of: 'I like coffee, I have a Breville, therefore I can open and run a café'.

[noidle22]

I can't really offer any good advice regarding the best machines for you but what I will say is that dumping money into expensive equipment won't make your business better than others so don't be tempted by big shiny pieces of gear that offer you the world.
Sure, with $40k of coffee machine and grinders set up with proper calibration and tuning paired with an experienced barista and good coffee beans, you would make better coffee than a lot of other places but merely having the expensive equipment won't give you better coffee than other businesses.

For example, I went to a local cafe the other day just around the corner from my work to find that they had swapped out their Wega 2 group machine for a 3 group Synesso Hydra, a $20k machine. They were extremely busy with one barista handling both the coffee and milk with another barista occasionally pouring some shots. The end result was a 15 minute wait for my coffee which tasted no different from the coffee that their Wega could make.

What had their $20k investment got them? Not much from what I could see.

[TampIt]

If i want to start business in coffee shop, anyone would suggest me what machine i should take?

Regards

Kopiireng

Hi Kopiireng

Firstly, keep the Talk Coffee comment firmly in mind.

So....baby steps

Chris

We all would like to conquer the universe this morning, however a bit of prep & forethought is needed first!

Secondly, just like noidle22

I can't really offer any good advice regarding the best machines for you but what I will say is that dumping money into expensive equipment won't make your business better than others so don't be tempted by big shiny pieces of gear that offer you the world.
Sure, with $40k of coffee machine and grinders set up with proper calibration and tuning paired with an experienced barista and good coffee beans, you would make better coffee than a lot of other places but merely having the expensive equipment won't give you better coffee than other businesses.

For example, I went to a local cafe the other day just around the corner from my work to find that they had swapped out their Wega 2 group machine for a 3 group Synesso Hydra, a $20k machine. They were extremely busy with one barista handling both the coffee and milk with another barista occasionally pouring some shots. The end result was a 15 minute wait for my coffee which tasted no different from the coffee that their Wega could make.

What had their $20k investment got them? Not much from what I could see.

the worst coffee I had recently came out of a three group Strada MP (about 25K, give or take 5K depending upon location / discount / lease etc.). The barista knew how to dance and ponce, but what they did not know about pulling a coffee shot was way past embarrassing. Ironically, it was a machine I had set up about 6 months before and the owner had sold it to another cafe: rightfully, given the level of staff "lack of expertise" in his cafe, no one was even close to be able to use the thing. Neither could the new owner, it turned out...

Most CSrs would suggest you stay with your Breville DB until you can get that to dance and then make a considered move "up the coffee grinder and machine food chain".

chokkidog posted an excellent post full of sound advice ...(heavily edited by me)...:

Welcome to CS kopiireng.

Where are you located? What machines are available to you, other than those you have already mentioned?

You need to get out and about and see what other cafés in your area are using then research those machines.

A machine from a local supplier with a good reputation for after sales service and parts inventory is where you should be looking.

Don't get hung up just on machines tho'; you have yet to mention grinder....

but the same criteria applies to choosing a grinder as to the machine.... you get what you pay for.

FWIW, my 2 cents to add is simple: without a decent grinder and the ability to dial it in, the best machine in the world cannot make a decent coffee (garbage in, garbage out).

If nothing else, read the first of these handy guides - at least it will give you a start in understanding the coffee to table process.

1) CoffeeGeek - How to Buy an Espresso Machine (includes the all important grinder)

2) When you understand that, try

The Home Barista's Guide to Espresso • Home-Barista.com

which has a lot more detail (as does anything else by Schulman)

and finally

3) Mano Lite: A Short Guide to Dialing in Espresso SOs and Blends - Home-Barista.com

which barely scratches the surface of how to dial in "strange gear".

Given your approach so far seems to ignore all the previous posters attempting to give you some help, I guess you can ignore this one as well...

TampIt

[kopiireng]

Welcome to CS kopiireng.

Where are you located? What machines are available to you, other than those you have already mentioned?

You need to get out and about and see what other cafés in your area are using then research those machines.

A machine from a local supplier with a good reputation for after sales service and parts inventory is where you should be looking.

If anyone gives you direct advice like you have already received..... such as the ego/$$$machine comment, find out what they mean by $$$$machine.

Are they talking about a circa $20,000 Synesso, Slayer, Spirit, Strada 3 group? You won't need a 3 group and you don't need one of those machines.

So if you want a reliable machine spend $6,000 >>>$9,000 on a 2 group. Don't get hung up just on machines tho'; you have yet to mention grinder....

but the same criteria applies to choosing a grinder as to the machine.... you get what you pay for.

It seems to me that you need to educate yourself about coffee and work out where your place in the scheme of things might be.

A franchise seems to be your ultimate goal..... franchises often work on a 'lowest common denominator' or a 'one size fits all' philosophy,

rather than excellence. Perhaps you are looking at things upside down?

Making coffee is not the hardest part of running a business so my advice is to get some experience under your belt so that you're

not operating under the principle of: 'I like coffee, I have a Breville, therefore I can open and run a café'.

thank you chokkidog for your advice,
let me introduce to you and other member, i'm from indonesia live in small city. i joined this forum because BDB thread and want to learn from other BDB owner.
well the cafe's around me using orchestralle etnica and vibiemme, both are double group.
i have a grinder OBEL EB on demand commonly rebadged as bezzera,and purchasing astoria mini e grinder (i think it's same with mazzer mini e doser) CMIIW.
now i'm looking and comparing machine that suit for my cafe.

regards

kopiireng

[kopiireng]

I can't really offer any good advice regarding the best machines for you but what I will say is that dumping money into expensive equipment won't make your business better than others so don't be tempted by big shiny pieces of gear that offer you the world.
Sure, with $40k of coffee machine and grinders set up with proper calibration and tuning paired with an experienced barista and good coffee beans, you would make better coffee than a lot of other places but merely having the expensive equipment won't give you better coffee than other businesses.

For example, I went to a local cafe the other day just around the corner from my work to find that they had swapped out their Wega 2 group machine for a 3 group Synesso Hydra, a $20k machine. They were extremely busy with one barista handling both the coffee and milk with another barista occasionally pouring some shots. The end result was a 15 minute wait for my coffee which tasted no different from the coffee that their Wega could make.

What had their $20k investment got them? Not much from what I could see.

noidle22, i'm agree with you.
i do not pursue big $$$$$ machine, i'm looking for a machine that allows the barista to work more efficiently and make a great shot everytime.
if i'm not wrong Wega and Astoria is same fabrication.
the astoria importer in my country provide parts and technician, that's why astoria is on my list.
regards

kopiireng

[kopiireng]

Hi Kopiireng

Firstly, keep the Talk Coffee comment firmly in mind.

We all would like to conquer the universe this morning, however a bit of prep & forethought is needed first!

Secondly, just like noidle22

the worst coffee I had recently came out of a three group Strada MP (about 25K, give or take 5K depending upon location / discount / lease etc.). The barista knew how to dance and ponce, but what they did not know about pulling a coffee shot was way past embarrassing. Ironically, it was a machine I had set up about 6 months before and the owner had sold it to another cafe: rightfully, given the level of staff "lack of expertise" in his cafe, no one was even close to be able to use the thing. Neither could the new owner, it turned out...

Most CSrs would suggest you stay with your Breville DB until you can get that to dance and then make a considered move "up the coffee grinder and machine food chain".

chokkidog posted an excellent post full of sound advice ...(heavily edited by me)...:



FWIW, my 2 cents to add is simple: without a decent grinder and the ability to dial it in, the best machine in the world cannot make a decent coffee (garbage in, garbage out).

If nothing else, read the first of these handy guides - at least it will give you a start in understanding the coffee to table process.

1) CoffeeGeek - How to Buy an Espresso Machine (includes the all important grinder)

2) When you understand that, try

The Home Barista's Guide to Espresso • Home-Barista.com

which has a lot more detail (as does anything else by Schulman)

and finally

3) Mano Lite: A Short Guide to Dialing in Espresso SOs and Blends - Home-Barista.com

which barely scratches the surface of how to dial in "strange gear".

Given your approach so far seems to ignore all the previous posters attempting to give you some help, I guess you can ignore this one as well...

TampIt

hello TampIt

thank you for the link.
to run small coffee shop with BDB is not a problem at all, the machine is tough and i love it. but it will stay nice in home kitchen not in coffee shop.
i love the feature of BDB,i can set the pre-infusion timer to bring out the maximum taste of beans,PID controlled, volumetric dose, quick warm up and so on.
but the steam power is too low for big milk jug, the barista and BDB will struggling in busy hour like pouring water on tank, clean out the drip tray, frothing the milk jug by jug.
i can see the point, shinny $$$$ machine not guarantee can produce great shot, it's the barista the man who understand how to work with the machine to bring up the flavour make a balanced espresso, but it depends on what beans we are working on.


regards

kopiireng

[Vinitasse]

Sorry, but running even a small coffee shop with a BDB would be a complete disaster!!!!!!!! The BDB is NOT and NEVER will be a commercial coffee machine so please don't even think such thoughts. Please.

[kopiireng]

Sorry, but running even a small coffee shop with a BDB would be a complete disaster!!!!!!!! The BDB is NOT and NEVER will be a commercial coffee machine so please don't even think such thoughts. Please.

hello vinitasse,
my BDB will stay nice in my kitchen, she will safe there. pulling 20 shot a day is it too much for BDB?

[Vinitasse]

Yes! 7300 shots per year would kill any appliance coffee machine in quick order.

[TampIt]

hello TampIt

thank you for the link.
to run small coffee shop with BDB is not a problem at all, the machine is tough and i love it. but it will stay nice in home kitchen not in coffee shop.
i love the feature of BDB,i can set the pre-infusion timer to bring out the maximum taste of beans,PID controlled, volumetric dose, quick warm up and so on.
but the steam power is too low for big milk jug, the barista and BDB will struggling in busy hour like pouring water on tank, clean out the drip tray, frothing the milk jug by jug.
i can see the point, shinny $$$$ machine not guarantee can produce great shot, it's the barista the man who understand how to work with the machine to bring up the flavour make a balanced espresso, but it depends on what beans we are working on.


regards

kopiireng

Hi kopiireng

Just to clarify my BDB comment: until you can get a really good result out of that, ANY "shiny new machine" would be a waste of money. After the BDB is working well for you, try to find any 2 group commercial machine (new or secondhand) which your local people can service and repair. After another year, if your cafe is a success, you can go for the "shiny new machine": pay for it easily and, more importantly, actually know how to use it.

Vinitesse is 100 correct:

Sorry, but running even a small coffee shop with a BDB would be a complete disaster!!!!!!!! The BDB is NOT and NEVER will be a commercial coffee machine so please don't even think such thoughts. Please.

Just as my 2 group La Pavoni (i.e. a standard commercial machine requiring 15amp power and plumbed in water supply) is "not very good" in a home environment, the BDB would be hopeless in a commercial environment. Just trying to keep the boiler full would be a major safety issue.

Good luck with your cafe: we all appreciate someone who is making the effort to deliver better coffee to the public (especially tourists).

TampIt

[kopiireng]

Hi kopiireng

Just to clarify my BDB comment: until you can get a really good result out of that, ANY "shiny new machine" would be a waste of money. After the BDB is working well for you, try to find any 2 group commercial machine (new or secondhand) which your local people can service and repair. After another year, if your cafe is a success, you can go for the "shiny new machine": pay for it easily and, more importantly, actually know how to use it.

Vinitesse is 100 correct:


Just as my 2 group La Pavoni (i.e. a standard commercial machine requiring 15amp power and plumbed in water supply) is "not very good" in a home environment, the BDB would be hopeless in a commercial environment. Just trying to keep the boiler full would be a major safety issue.

Good luck with your cafe: we all appreciate someone who is making the effort to deliver better coffee to the public (especially tourists).

TampIt

I really work hard to deliver good coffee to public.
Thank you for encourage me. I'm getting better and better with BDB, now is the time to learn big machine.

Have a nice cup of coffee gentlemen.

I didn't mean to show off, this is my progress from nothing know about coffee and latte