Originally posted by chokkidog
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affordable espresso machine for little coffee shop
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A couple of comments:
a) PID machines require service providers to "re think" what they know about espresso machine repair (in comparison to HX type). If your "local dealer" doesnt have much experience with PID machines or is not really close by, or if the PID machine on offer has had a lot of use previously, I would tend to steer clear of the PID machine.
b) Without knowing the condition of the machine you are being offered, generally speaking the NS Appia is (or used to be) a very solid reliable long lived work horse.
Lastly, no matter what you buy, you will be looking to your "local dealer" to provide you with exemplary back up service. He sells you a machine, he has a responsibility to look after you, so make sure he is reputable and can disharge his reponsibility to you.
Hope that helps.
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Hi kopiireng, have you tried gumtree? There is never a shortage of commercial espresso machines that fit your budget going for sale on there. La cimbalis, wegas, expobars, etc all suitable for a small café environment. We bought an expobar elen 2 for our church coffee cart for roughly ~$4000 through gumtree and it’s been quite the workhorse. Also make sure you set aside a generous budget for the grinder, infinitely more important than the espresso machine if you want to serve up a good coffee!
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I really work hard to deliver good coffee to public.Originally posted by TampIt View PostHi kopiireng
Just to clarify my BDB comment: until you can get a really good result out of that, ANY "shiny new machine" would be a waste of money. After the BDB is working well for you, try to find any 2 group commercial machine (new or secondhand) which your local people can service and repair. After another year, if your cafe is a success, you can go for the "shiny new machine": pay for it easily and, more importantly, actually know how to use it.
Vinitesse is 100 correct:
Just as my 2 group La Pavoni (i.e. a standard commercial machine requiring 15amp power and plumbed in water supply) is "not very good" in a home environment, the BDB would be hopeless in a commercial environment. Just trying to keep the boiler full would be a major safety issue.
Good luck with your cafe: we all appreciate someone who is making the effort to deliver better coffee to the public (especially tourists).
TampIt
Thank you for encourage me. I'm getting better and better with BDB, now is the time to learn big machine.
Have a nice cup of coffee gentlemen.
I didn't mean to show off, this is my progress from nothing know about coffee and latte
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Hi kopiirengOriginally posted by kopiireng View Posthello TampIt
thank you for the link.
to run small coffee shop with BDB is not a problem at all, the machine is tough and i love it. but it will stay nice in home kitchen not in coffee shop.
i love the feature of BDB,i can set the pre-infusion timer to bring out the maximum taste of beans,PID controlled, volumetric dose, quick warm up and so on.
but the steam power is too low for big milk jug, the barista and BDB will struggling in busy hour like pouring water on tank, clean out the drip tray, frothing the milk jug by jug.
i can see the point, shinny $$$$ machine not guarantee can produce great shot, it's the barista the man who understand how to work with the machine to bring up the flavour make a balanced espresso, but it depends on what beans we are working on.
regards
kopiireng
Just to clarify my BDB comment: until you can get a really good result out of that, ANY "shiny new machine" would be a waste of money. After the BDB is working well for you, try to find any 2 group commercial machine (new or secondhand) which your local people can service and repair. After another year, if your cafe is a success, you can go for the "shiny new machine": pay for it easily and, more importantly, actually know how to use it.
Vinitesse is 100 correct:
Just as my 2 group La Pavoni (i.e. a standard commercial machine requiring 15amp power and plumbed in water supply) is "not very good" in a home environment, the BDB would be hopeless in a commercial environment. Just trying to keep the boiler full would be a major safety issue.Originally posted by Vinitasse View PostSorry, but running even a small coffee shop with a BDB would be a complete disaster!!!!!!!! The BDB is NOT and NEVER will be a commercial coffee machine so please don't even think such thoughts. Please.
Good luck with your cafe: we all appreciate someone who is making the effort to deliver better coffee to the public (especially tourists).
TampIt
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Yes! 7300 shots per year would kill any appliance coffee machine in quick order.
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hello vinitasse,Originally posted by Vinitasse View PostSorry, but running even a small coffee shop with a BDB would be a complete disaster!!!!!!!! The BDB is NOT and NEVER will be a commercial coffee machine so please don't even think such thoughts. Please.
my BDB will stay nice in my kitchen, she will safe there. pulling 20 shot a day is it too much for BDB?
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Sorry, but running even a small coffee shop with a BDB would be a complete disaster!!!!!!!! The BDB is NOT and NEVER will be a commercial coffee machine so please don't even think such thoughts. Please.
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hello TampItOriginally posted by TampIt View PostHi Kopiireng
Firstly, keep the Talk Coffee comment firmly in mind.
We all would like to conquer the universe this morning, however a bit of prep & forethought is needed first!
Secondly, just like noidle22
the worst coffee I had recently came out of a three group Strada MP (about 25K, give or take 5K depending upon location / discount / lease etc.). The barista knew how to dance and ponce, but what they did not know about pulling a coffee shot was way past embarrassing. Ironically, it was a machine I had set up about 6 months before and the owner had sold it to another cafe: rightfully, given the level of staff "lack of expertise" in his cafe, no one was even close to be able to use the thing. Neither could the new owner, it turned out...
Most CSrs would suggest you stay with your Breville DB until you can get that to dance and then make a considered move "up the coffee grinder and machine food chain".
chokkidog posted an excellent post full of sound advice ...(heavily edited by me)...:
FWIW, my 2 cents to add is simple: without a decent grinder and the ability to dial it in, the best machine in the world cannot make a decent coffee (garbage in, garbage out).
If nothing else, read the first of these handy guides - at least it will give you a start in understanding the coffee to table process.
1) CoffeeGeek - How to Buy an Espresso Machine (includes the all important grinder)
2) When you understand that, try
The Home Barista's Guide to Espresso • Home-Barista.com
which has a lot more detail (as does anything else by Schulman)
and finally
3) Mano Lite: A Short Guide to Dialing in Espresso SOs and Blends - Home-Barista.com
which barely scratches the surface of how to dial in "strange gear".
Given your approach so far seems to ignore all the previous posters attempting to give you some help, I guess you can ignore this one as well...
TampIt
thank you for the link.
to run small coffee shop with BDB is not a problem at all, the machine is tough and i love it. but it will stay nice in home kitchen not in coffee shop.
i love the feature of BDB,i can set the pre-infusion timer to bring out the maximum taste of beans,PID controlled, volumetric dose, quick warm up and so on.
but the steam power is too low for big milk jug, the barista and BDB will struggling in busy hour like pouring water on tank, clean out the drip tray, frothing the milk jug by jug.
i can see the point, shinny $$$$ machine not guarantee can produce great shot, it's the barista the man who understand how to work with the machine to bring up the flavour make a balanced espresso, but it depends on what beans we are working on.
regards
kopiireng
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noidle22, i'm agree with you.Originally posted by noidle22 View PostI can't really offer any good advice regarding the best machines for you but what I will say is that dumping money into expensive equipment won't make your business better than others so don't be tempted by big shiny pieces of gear that offer you the world.
Sure, with $40k of coffee machine and grinders set up with proper calibration and tuning paired with an experienced barista and good coffee beans, you would make better coffee than a lot of other places but merely having the expensive equipment won't give you better coffee than other businesses.
For example, I went to a local cafe the other day just around the corner from my work to find that they had swapped out their Wega 2 group machine for a 3 group Synesso Hydra, a $20k machine. They were extremely busy with one barista handling both the coffee and milk with another barista occasionally pouring some shots. The end result was a 15 minute wait for my coffee which tasted no different from the coffee that their Wega could make.
What had their $20k investment got them? Not much from what I could see.
i do not pursue big $$$$$ machine, i'm looking for a machine that allows the barista to work more efficiently and make a great shot everytime.
if i'm not wrong Wega and Astoria is same fabrication.
the astoria importer in my country provide parts and technician, that's why astoria is on my list.
regards
kopiireng
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thank you chokkidog for your advice,Originally posted by chokkidog View PostWelcome to CS kopiireng.
Where are you located? What machines are available to you, other than those you have already mentioned?
You need to get out and about and see what other cafés in your area are using then research those machines.
A machine from a local supplier with a good reputation for after sales service and parts inventory is where you should be looking.
If anyone gives you direct advice like you have already received..... such as the ego/$$$machine comment, find out what they mean by $$$$machine.
Are they talking about a circa $20,000 Synesso, Slayer, Spirit, Strada 3 group? You won't need a 3 group and you don't need one of those machines.
So if you want a reliable machine spend $6,000 >>>$9,000 on a 2 group. Don't get hung up just on machines tho'; you have yet to mention grinder....
but the same criteria applies to choosing a grinder as to the machine.... you get what you pay for.
It seems to me that you need to educate yourself about coffee and work out where your place in the scheme of things might be.
A franchise seems to be your ultimate goal..... franchises often work on a 'lowest common denominator' or a 'one size fits all' philosophy,
rather than excellence. Perhaps you are looking at things upside down?
Making coffee is not the hardest part of running a business so my advice is to get some experience under your belt so that you're
not operating under the principle of: 'I like coffee, I have a Breville, therefore I can open and run a café'.
let me introduce to you and other member, i'm from indonesia live in small city. i joined this forum because BDB thread and want to learn from other BDB owner.
well the cafe's around me using orchestralle etnica and vibiemme, both are double group.
i have a grinder OBEL EB on demand commonly rebadged as bezzera,and purchasing astoria mini e grinder (i think it's same with mazzer mini e doser) CMIIW.
now i'm looking and comparing machine that suit for my cafe.
regards
kopiireng
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Hi KopiirengOriginally posted by kopiireng View PostIf i want to start business in coffee shop, anyone would suggest me what machine i should take?
Regards
Kopiireng
Firstly, keep the Talk Coffee comment firmly in mind.We all would like to conquer the universe this morning, however a bit of prep & forethought is needed first!Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
So....baby steps
Chris
Secondly, just like noidle22
the worst coffee I had recently came out of a three group Strada MP (about 25K, give or take 5K depending upon location / discount / lease etc.). The barista knew how to dance and ponce, but what they did not know about pulling a coffee shot was way past embarrassing. Ironically, it was a machine I had set up about 6 months before and the owner had sold it to another cafe: rightfully, given the level of staff "lack of expertise" in his cafe, no one was even close to be able to use the thing. Neither could the new owner, it turned out...Originally posted by noidle22 View PostI can't really offer any good advice regarding the best machines for you but what I will say is that dumping money into expensive equipment won't make your business better than others so don't be tempted by big shiny pieces of gear that offer you the world.
Sure, with $40k of coffee machine and grinders set up with proper calibration and tuning paired with an experienced barista and good coffee beans, you would make better coffee than a lot of other places but merely having the expensive equipment won't give you better coffee than other businesses.
For example, I went to a local cafe the other day just around the corner from my work to find that they had swapped out their Wega 2 group machine for a 3 group Synesso Hydra, a $20k machine. They were extremely busy with one barista handling both the coffee and milk with another barista occasionally pouring some shots. The end result was a 15 minute wait for my coffee which tasted no different from the coffee that their Wega could make.
What had their $20k investment got them? Not much from what I could see.
Most CSrs would suggest you stay with your Breville DB until you can get that to dance and then make a considered move "up the coffee grinder and machine food chain".
chokkidog posted an excellent post full of sound advice ...(heavily edited by me)...:
FWIW, my 2 cents to add is simple: without a decent grinder and the ability to dial it in, the best machine in the world cannot make a decent coffee (garbage in, garbage out).Originally posted by chokkidog View PostWelcome to CS kopiireng.
Where are you located? What machines are available to you, other than those you have already mentioned?
You need to get out and about and see what other cafés in your area are using then research those machines.
A machine from a local supplier with a good reputation for after sales service and parts inventory is where you should be looking.
Don't get hung up just on machines tho'; you have yet to mention grinder....
but the same criteria applies to choosing a grinder as to the machine.... you get what you pay for.
If nothing else, read the first of these handy guides - at least it will give you a start in understanding the coffee to table process.
1) CoffeeGeek - How to Buy an Espresso Machine (includes the all important grinder)
2) When you understand that, try
The Home Barista's Guide to Espresso • Home-Barista.com
which has a lot more detail (as does anything else by Schulman)
and finally
3) Mano Lite: A Short Guide to Dialing in Espresso SOs and Blends - Home-Barista.com
which barely scratches the surface of how to dial in "strange gear".
Given your approach so far seems to ignore all the previous posters attempting to give you some help, I guess you can ignore this one as well...
TampIt
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I can't really offer any good advice regarding the best machines for you but what I will say is that dumping money into expensive equipment won't make your business better than others so don't be tempted by big shiny pieces of gear that offer you the world.
Sure, with $40k of coffee machine and grinders set up with proper calibration and tuning paired with an experienced barista and good coffee beans, you would make better coffee than a lot of other places but merely having the expensive equipment won't give you better coffee than other businesses.
For example, I went to a local cafe the other day just around the corner from my work to find that they had swapped out their Wega 2 group machine for a 3 group Synesso Hydra, a $20k machine. They were extremely busy with one barista handling both the coffee and milk with another barista occasionally pouring some shots. The end result was a 15 minute wait for my coffee which tasted no different from the coffee that their Wega could make.
What had their $20k investment got them? Not much from what I could see.
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