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  • #16
    Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I'd argue that a DC in definitely not upward from a Vesuvius. The other two- as best sideways and then only due to design interest.
    Just to clarify, I was referring to the upward price spiral - not the relative quality of the equipment.

    Having not used any of them, or even seen them in the metal, I would never consider doing that !!

    Comment


    • #17
      Agree Chris, absolutely.

      Exactly why the 'better' thing is mostly irrelevant. It comes down to mainly preference.

      I'm not sure that OP, given their budget, has made themselves aware of just what is in the market place.

      Also not sure that there is a starting point of what they need, a position from which to build some perspective as to what they want.

      Two different things....

      And to be blunt, when some people ask the CS community 'what should I buy' it's saying a little too much ........

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Hossa,

        You certainly have a lot of money to burn. :P However, a lot of money and better machine definitely do not guarantee better coffee quality. Making good coffee consistently is an involved process and it requires understanding of the coffee-making process & technique learning. Your current machine/grinder combo (NS & K30) will already allow you to make the best coffee possible. Limitation is just on the technique and coffee beans used. You certainly won't gain much from buying another machine unless you feel obligated to spend the 10k, which I am happy to help you do so. ;P

        If you feel your shots are not as good as it can be, your best bet is probably to hire a personal barista trainer or attend some courses. What beans are you using by the way?

        But back to your question, it's not crazy, but rather irrational to have a commercial machine(that you proposed) at home. It does nothing to improve your coffee and wasteful (electric & water & counter space)

        Comment


        • #19
          Sorry, but after reading further I'm not so sure this is an entirely legit thread.

          Throwing a sack of money at a coffee machine is not going to get anyone better coffee.

          Speedster - sure - if your thing is ultimate design engineering. A piece of espresso machine art.

          GS3 - sure - another ultimate, but in this case in minimalist design engineering.

          Do they make better coffee than other more realistically priced machines? Only in the minds of people who think they do OR, for people that have become so anal about coffee making that they may as well get an einstein perm, and dress in a white lab coat to make coffee.

          Throwing money at equipment, does not a good cup of coffee make.

          After reading all the above, the question is.....
          Are you looking for
          a) the most upmarket Bling or Bragging Rights or
          b) the ultimate in design engineering or
          c) a great cup of coffee.

          If the answer is a), you should add to your list, the machine that elektra displayed at the last HOST exhibition in Milano (a privately commissioned design excercise).

          Does it look like bling? Depends on individual taste.
          Does it make great coffee? Irrelevant.

          If you like the machines you have already mentioned and your budget is legit, by all means buy one. Just dont forget you are in control of the coffee not the designed image of the machine or dollars spent. If you spend that much in the equipment and it is said to offer something more, then you should be spending some more dollars in training to make sure you get out of it what it is said to be able to offer....otherwise from a purely "cup of coffee" oriented perspective, the dollars spent on the equipment have been wasted and I have seen plenty of that.


          Hope that helps.
          Last edited by TOK; 8 January 2015, 04:14 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            I would find it hard to live without my 2 group commercial at home. They are wonderful to have around...mine is on 24/7. They come into their own at parties for sure...endless steam from a 11litre or so boiler is hard to beat. Mine costs about $1 a day to run but you save money off that not having to boil the kettle for tea, soups etc. My FAEMA is VERY heat stable and produces a great brew. Top is great for cup warming but also plate warming. The texturing is as you would expect from that much steam.

            There was a post above about purging the boiler water....i have never seen a need as the hot water wand is used all the time at my place.

            So yes i high end domestic machine is all that is required for excellent coffee (like for like with great beans, grinder and good technique) but no you are not mad wanting a commercial if you want to spend the dough. Good brand commercial machines are built to last (just look under the hood) and get the right brand and its crazy how easy it is to get parts for a 20 year old machine at very cheap prices.

            As for power i ran my FAEMA on a cheat stick on a home circuit GPO and no probs...I dont recommend that of course and then got a 15 amp run put in. There are plenty of machines that run on 15 amp circuits.

            Cheers

            Comment


            • #21
              Why not consider this commercial machine:

              https://www.coffeeroasters.com.au/sh...illipo-1-group

              Simple to use. Simple to maintain.
              Hand made in Italy, and will last for years.
              Bugger all electrical parts to fail, but best of all, over 50 yrs of manufacturing experience.
              It makes damn fine espresso.

              Fantastic bragging rights, and it it a real show stopper in the home.

              Bosco can custom make whatever panels you desire.

              10Amp plug.

              No brainer.

              Comment


              • #22
                But have you tasted the water straight from the boiler? Without coffee?

                If it's refreshing quite quickly, it's probably alright.

                I have tasted a few old machines (literally!) ........ bit of an eye opener for their owners, especially if they draw water off to make tea for paying clients.

                They then take my original advice of using an electric jug for tea.

                Out of interest, ozcott, ....how quickly do you think you're turning over the 11 litres as steam?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes mate and have even drawn it from the hot tap (so straight from boiler) let it cool and tasted...no probs. Dont know the answer to the steam question. Its like anything though better to use them than not...like my boat. Not using it often enough is worse than using it all the time maintenance wise!

                  Cheers

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=Hossa12;549284]
                    Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                    FWIW I would spend just over half the dollars and buy a 220/240V LM GS3. Far better control over "minor things" like preinfusion and so much easier to live with domestically.

                    TampIt[/QUOTE
                    Thanks for your advice. But do u think that the GS3 is even better than the Dalla corte Mini?
                    Hi Hossa12

                    Given a decent grinder* PLUS either "a lot of experience" or "some seriously good training" it is actually very difficult to get a bad shot out of most quality machines. Given your budget, I would suggest spending at least $3000 on each grinder (FYI, I use one for dark roasts or decaf, one for medium SO's) and the rest on the actual espresso machine. You are the only person who can place the actual number of grinders required. The grinder is (IMO) much more important than the machine, as it is earlier in the coffee chain. Nothing can make a decent espresso out of a poor roast or poor grinder. On the other hand, a good roast & grinder plus a bit of savvy can give an outstanding shot in most "prosumer" gear - or even some fairly "low end" domestic gear for that matter.

                    Why I suggested the GS3 is the minimal impact on domestic living issues, fairly low maintenance plus its ability to make a coffee however you can envisage it. A truly precision tool for the aficionado who likes to tinker. Some much more expensive machines have more "bling" or raw throughput, however very few can beat its abilities, flexibility or performance for your 8 coffees a day. Given such low workload, the GS3 is still overkill, and yes, at that level it can do things the DC cannot (unless they have added them in the last two years or so without me being aware of it). As stated in another post, the Speedster (i.e. one of the most famous machines out there: think Ferrari or Bugatti cars) is basically a souped up GS3, although to call a GS3 "minimalist" is highly debatable if not outright contentious. A better description is probably "a clean design with incredible flexibility and power in a compact package". Oh, and emptying the water out before moving it is highly recommended - even empty you would swear it is made of lead & concrete.

                    As a previous GS3 owner (divorce casualty) I am still amazed that most other "high end machines" are not offering all the same features (yet). Only the very best manual lever machines offer more flexibility - however with a far longer & steeper learning curve for the inexperienced. Check up a few reviews and/or owners feedback on the Swiss "Olympia Cremina", the Italian "La Pavoni manual levers" or any of the "Electra manual levers" if you wish to explore that option (even if just to exclude it in your mind). A much harder to live with precision tool... especially at first!

                    As far as living with commercial machines at home: I also have a 2 group commercial La Pavoni (think small cafe "Mack truck" machine, not a lever). The sheer size of it and the noise relegates it outside, it needs a 15 amp power connection AND it must be plumbed in to both a water supply and a drain. If I can use it for the ravening hordes at a party it will provide coffee for 50+ without blinking - pity most of those occasions are held somewhere else (we alternate venues, like most families), and it takes two strong people to move it... then the destination has to have a 15amp powerpoint + plumbing... The La Pav takes around 30 minutes to warm up, and gives my 3Kw solar PVs a trashing in terms of power consumption. For my average day of 2 to 4 coffees at home, the La Pav is literally not worth the effort compared to my much more "domestic friendly machine" that makes identical quality coffee - 5 minute warm up, minimal power consumption, is quieter, just uses a 3 litre water tank (I use filtered rainwater, so plumbing the La Pav in was a real pain) and a standard powerpoint. It also fits in the (very small) kitchen.

                    The other piece of advice I would offer: How much effort are you willing to put in to learn how to get the best out of your chosen gear? Unless it is a long term passion, there are much simpler & cheaper answers which will be far less frustrating in the short to medium term.

                    * Personally I use two Mahlkonig Vario gen2's, approx $700 each, a larger budget would probably look at Mahlkonig EK43(s) at around $3500 each or similar competitor offerings (if there are any). Hard to go past the official world barista grinders... Mind you, the EK43 is not 5 times better than the Vario, just a lot faster, much higher throughput & with a few more tricks up its sleeve. Your budget, your call...

                    Hope this helps


                    TampIt

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      "Only the very best manual lever machines offer more flexibility - however with a far longer & steeper learning curve for the inexperienced. Check up a few reviews and/or owners feedback on the Swiss "Olympia Cremina", the Italian "La Pavoni manual levers" or any of the "Electra manual levers" if you wish to explore that option (even if just to exclude it in your mind). A much harder to live with precision tool... especially at first."


                      Your argument here is seriously flawed.
                      OP is considering a commercial machine. A GS3 is being discussed. You then bring in toys into the equation. The "levers" you mentioned are babies, and completely unsuitable for what the OP has described.
                      It would be far better to mention true levers that are much easier to master, and built to the standards the OP is seeking, then the models you have mentioned. Your comment about the best manual lever is also debatable.

                      If the OP wants a "LEVER" then the manufacturers to consider are:

                      Bosco
                      Izzo
                      Astoria
                      possible others

                      The next level down can probably be described as prosumer:

                      Strega
                      Londinium 1
                      Quick Mill
                      etc

                      Levers are not harder to master than a pump driven machine, on the contrary they are very easy to use, but the operator MUST understand the principles of espresso making.

                      As to grinders, all the talk about which one is better than the other is basically a load of egotistical nonsense. If you pay a $1000 or more for a grinder, you will get a great unit. The one to choose is the one that you like to use, not the one that internet hooha dictates. You can make crap coffee with a $200 grinder and with a $5000 grinder if your espresso making technique is not up to par.

                      Overall, buy something that you enjoy using, not something that the internet dictates you must have.

                      Anyone buying an EK43 for home use must have some serious psychological problems. It is monstrous in size, and I cannot imagine how it can simplify the joy of espresso making.
                      If someone is contemplating such a move, then they should seek professional help for their OCD.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Quote from Post #19 - "Sorry, but after reading further I'm not so sure this is an entirely legit thread."

                        Neither am I. This guy has started several similar threads here and at CG's over a period of several years.

                        One of them reads a lot like this one.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
                          "Only the very best manual lever machines offer more flexibility - however with a far longer & steeper learning curve for the inexperienced. Check up a few reviews and/or owners feedback on the Swiss "Olympia Cremina", the Italian "La Pavoni manual levers" or any of the "Electra manual levers" if you wish to explore that option (even if just to exclude it in your mind). A much harder to live with precision tool... especially at first."


                          Your argument here is seriously flawed.
                          OP is considering a commercial machine. A GS3 is being discussed. You then bring in toys into the equation. The "levers" you mentioned are babies, and completely unsuitable for what the OP has described.
                          It would be far better to mention true levers that are much easier to master, and built to the standards the OP is seeking, then the models you have mentioned. Your comment about the best manual lever is also debatable.

                          If the OP wants a "LEVER" then the manufacturers to consider are:

                          Bosco
                          Izzo
                          Astoria
                          possible others

                          The next level down can probably be described as prosumer:

                          Strega
                          Londinium 1
                          Quick Mill
                          etc

                          Levers are not harder to master than a pump driven machine, on the contrary they are very easy to use, but the operator MUST understand the principles of espresso making.

                          As to grinders, all the talk about which one is better than the other is basically a load of egotistical nonsense. If you pay a $1000 or more for a grinder, you will get a great unit. The one to choose is the one that you like to use, not the one that internet hooha dictates. You can make crap coffee with a $200 grinder and with a $5000 grinder if your espresso making technique is not up to par.

                          Overall, buy something that you enjoy using, not something that the internet dictates you must have.

                          Anyone buying an EK43 for home use must have some serious psychological problems. It is monstrous in size, and I cannot imagine how it can simplify the joy of espresso making.
                          If someone is contemplating such a move, then they should seek professional help for their OCD.
                          Hi Bosco_Lever

                          Levers: I disagree - having lived with an Electra lever for well over 20 years, no way is it a toy. It took me nearly a year to get consistently equal coffees out of the 240V GS3. As for the Olympia Cemina - a few months with a friend's one convinced me it is the best manual lever I have ever used by a big margin - and that includes most of the ones you listed plus a few others. Easy to use - only the "baby people by doing everything including loading the spring types" are easy to use, however they are not as capable as the fully manual levers I prefer. As usual, YMMV and that is fine.

                          Grinders: depends what you are trying to achieve. Yes, you can make crap coffee with any gear if you are clueless. Recently I mentioned in another CS post that a particularly vile coffee came out of a "poseur driven" Strada (cannot remember if I stated that the roast was excellent and the grinder was a fairly newish Major). I also stated that given a good grinder (whatever that means) it is possible to make a decent cup in most espresso machines. If I had a large enough kitchen and was making a lot more coffees than I currently do, I would certainly consider replacing my Vario gen2s (easiest to live with domestic grinder plus a full blown Swiss commercial grade mechanism I know of) with an EK43 or two - simply because I know of no better grinder "this week". Just as I use a naked p/f, VST ridgeless baskets and 316 Pullman tampers, because I know of no better combination. Once again, YMMV and that is fine.

                          I should add that over the years I have used and hated almost every commercial grinder out there - and even owned far too many of them. I was taught "all grinders suck, some less than others" and it is only recently that is (finally) beginning to change.

                          TampIt

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
                            It would be far better to mention true levers that are much easier to master, and built to the standards the OP is seeking, then the models you have mentioned. Your comment about the best manual lever is also debatable.

                            If the OP wants a "LEVER" then the manufacturers to consider are:

                            Bosco
                            Izzo
                            Astoria
                            possible others

                            The next level down can probably be described as prosumer.....

                            ....Levers are not harder to master than a pump driven machine, on the contrary they are very easy to use, but the operator MUST understand the principles of espresso making.

                            As to grinders, all the talk about which one is better than the other is basically a load of egotistical nonsense. If you pay a $1000 or more for a grinder, you will get a great unit. The one to choose is the one that you like to use, not the one that internet hooha dictates. You can make crap coffee with a $200 grinder and with a $5000 grinder if your espresso making technique is not up to par.

                            Overall, buy something that you enjoy using, not something that the internet dictates you must have.....
                            I'm with you there Bosco.

                            My first experience of a "true lever" (i.e the class with San Marco or CMA group) was the Izzo Pompeii 1 group. Binned the first shot as I overdosed. Thereafter, consistent nirvana. They are in fact easier to master than pump driven machines and other than basic exterior anatomy (the presence of some sort of lever), they have little in common with the cheaper, pretty little domestic lever machines. The Pompeii makes me look good at what I do.

                            Our Alex Leva ticks the build quality and bang for buck boxes on a smaller than commercial footprint. It can also be run from a flojet pump like all true lever machines. It is in fact a 1 group Izzo commercial on a more domestic sized chassis. The Bosco? Also terrific.

                            EK43 at home. Yep- you'd in fact need 5- 1 for decaf, 2 for different blends and a further 2 for origin. In a nutshell, a large commercial bag grinder in a home is ridiculous and borderline unsuitable for purpose.
                            Last edited by TC; 11 January 2015, 08:39 AM. Reason: more info

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                              Hi Bosco_Lever

                              Levers: I disagree - having lived with an Electra lever for well over 20 years, no way is it a toy. It took me nearly a year to get consistently equal coffees out of the 240V GS3. As for the Olympia Cemina - a few months with a friend's one convinced me it is the best manual lever I have ever used by a big margin - and that includes most of the ones you listed plus a few others. Easy to use - only the "baby people by doing everything including loading the spring types" are easy to use, however they are not as capable as the fully manual levers I prefer. As usual, YMMV and that is fine.

                              Grinders: depends what you are trying to achieve. Yes, you can make crap coffee with any gear if you are clueless. Recently I mentioned in another CS post that a particularly vile coffee came out of a "poseur driven" Strada (cannot remember if I stated that the roast was excellent and the grinder was a fairly newish Major). I also stated that given a good grinder (whatever that means) it is possible to make a decent cup in most espresso machines. If I had a large enough kitchen and was making a lot more coffees than I currently do, I would certainly consider replacing my Vario gen2s (easiest to live with domestic grinder plus a full blown Swiss commercial grade mechanism I know of) with an EK43 or two - simply because I know of no better grinder "this week". Just as I use a naked p/f, VST ridgeless baskets and 316 Pullman tampers, because I know of no better combination. Once again, YMMV and that is fine.

                              I should add that over the years I have used and hated almost every commercial grinder out there - and even owned far too many of them. I was taught "all grinders suck, some less than others" and it is only recently that is (finally) beginning to change.

                              TampIt
                              The topic (valid or not) is about using a commercial machine or high end prosumer unit for home use to deliver excellent coffee. (Average 8 a day). The levers you mention are TOYS designed for a couple of espressos at a time. Anyone without OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) can easily see that that these small levers, though capable are not in the league of the Bosco, Astoria, Izzo, etc. Add the requirement for steaming milk for 8 coffees (90% of all coffees are milk based) and people will start recommending a fitting for that special white jacket. If the Olympia Cremina is the best you have used, then either your experience is limited or your definition of best is skewed. There are very few people in Australia with extensive hands on experience of a Bosco and I doubt you are one of them. There are quite a few with an Izzo (and other small levers), and their recommendation would not be any of the small levers you praise. The machines I mentioned are fit for purpose and used extensively in Italy. I do not see any of your preferred machines being used in a commercial coffee application.

                              If you really wanted a lever that produces excellent but different espresso to the main levers, then the recommendation would be a Caravel. Not better, not worse, just different.

                              As to use of acronyms, be aware they are easily misinterpreted. I prefer proper English as YMMV can easily stand for:
                              -You must masturbate voraciously
                              -Your majestic member vibrates
                              -You must meet vultures
                              -Your mother moves violently
                              etc etc

                              As to the grinders, what you may perceive as the best, may not necessarily fulfill the requirements of others. It is simply your opinion as to what your palate interprets as the best for the type of coffee that you like. The constant need to extoll the pedigree of a Vario is indicative of compulsive behaviour.
                              As to having an EK43 in the kitchen, my previous medical advice stands.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Bosco... absolutely love your work... cheeky, irreverent... yet always amusing :-)

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