Commercial espresso machine for home use

[Aaron]

with the kind of cash the OP was mentioning you could pick up a completely restored FAEMA president and have a working piece of italian industrial sculpture on your bench top.

[Vinitasse]

The EK43 is a deli grinder with 98mm plates meant for bulk grinding into take-away bags for retail sale. It was never designed to be used in the home, or in a cafe, but there are those who have been convinced (most likely due to celebrity endorsement) that it is the be-all and end-all of espresso grinders. I say POPPY COCK! I also have a very large, huge plated bag grinder at hand but am honest enough with myself to admit that the commercial espresso grinder I choose to use at home is a far better fit for purpose.

[ozscott]

Just looked at pics of the ek43...you would hope it's mother at least loved it.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I giggled a lot

[Dimal]

Bosco... absolutely love your work... cheeky, irreverent... yet always amusing :-)

Indeed...

Mal.

[Vinitasse]

Bosco... absolutely love your work... cheeky, irreverent... yet always amusing :-)

[Bosco_Lever]

Hi Bosco_Lever

Levers: I disagree - having lived with an Electra lever for well over 20 years, no way is it a toy. It took me nearly a year to get consistently equal coffees out of the 240V GS3. As for the Olympia Cemina - a few months with a friend's one convinced me it is the best manual lever I have ever used by a big margin - and that includes most of the ones you listed plus a few others. Easy to use - only the "baby people by doing everything including loading the spring types" are easy to use, however they are not as capable as the fully manual levers I prefer. As usual, YMMV and that is fine.

Grinders: depends what you are trying to achieve. Yes, you can make crap coffee with any gear if you are clueless. Recently I mentioned in another CS post that a particularly vile coffee came out of a "poseur driven" Strada (cannot remember if I stated that the roast was excellent and the grinder was a fairly newish Major). I also stated that given a good grinder (whatever that means) it is possible to make a decent cup in most espresso machines. If I had a large enough kitchen and was making a lot more coffees than I currently do, I would certainly consider replacing my Vario gen2s (easiest to live with domestic grinder plus a full blown Swiss commercial grade mechanism I know of) with an EK43 or two - simply because I know of no better grinder "this week". Just as I use a naked p/f, VST ridgeless baskets and 316 Pullman tampers, because I know of no better combination. Once again, YMMV and that is fine.

I should add that over the years I have used and hated almost every commercial grinder out there - and even owned far too many of them. I was taught "all grinders suck, some less than others" and it is only recently that is (finally) beginning to change.

TampIt

The topic (valid or not) is about using a commercial machine or high end prosumer unit for home use to deliver excellent coffee. (Average 8 a day). The levers you mention are TOYS designed for a couple of espressos at a time. Anyone without OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) can easily see that that these small levers, though capable are not in the league of the Bosco, Astoria, Izzo, etc. Add the requirement for steaming milk for 8 coffees (90% of all coffees are milk based) and people will start recommending a fitting for that special white jacket. If the Olympia Cremina is the best you have used, then either your experience is limited or your definition of best is skewed. There are very few people in Australia with extensive hands on experience of a Bosco and I doubt you are one of them. There are quite a few with an Izzo (and other small levers), and their recommendation would not be any of the small levers you praise. The machines I mentioned are fit for purpose and used extensively in Italy. I do not see any of your preferred machines being used in a commercial coffee application.

If you really wanted a lever that produces excellent but different espresso to the main levers, then the recommendation would be a Caravel. Not better, not worse, just different.

As to use of acronyms, be aware they are easily misinterpreted. I prefer proper English as YMMV can easily stand for:
-You must masturbate voraciously
-Your majestic member vibrates
-You must meet vultures
-Your mother moves violently
etc etc

As to the grinders, what you may perceive as the best, may not necessarily fulfill the requirements of others. It is simply your opinion as to what your palate interprets as the best for the type of coffee that you like. The constant need to extoll the pedigree of a Vario is indicative of compulsive behaviour.
As to having an EK43 in the kitchen, my previous medical advice stands.

[TC]

It would be far better to mention true levers that are much easier to master, and built to the standards the OP is seeking, then the models you have mentioned. Your comment about the best manual lever is also debatable.

If the OP wants a "LEVER" then the manufacturers to consider are:

Bosco
Izzo
Astoria
possible others

The next level down can probably be described as prosumer.....

....Levers are not harder to master than a pump driven machine, on the contrary they are very easy to use, but the operator MUST understand the principles of espresso making.

As to grinders, all the talk about which one is better than the other is basically a load of egotistical nonsense. If you pay a $1000 or more for a grinder, you will get a great unit. The one to choose is the one that you like to use, not the one that internet hooha dictates. You can make crap coffee with a $200 grinder and with a $5000 grinder if your espresso making technique is not up to par.

Overall, buy something that you enjoy using, not something that the internet dictates you must have.....

I'm with you there Bosco.

My first experience of a "true lever" (i.e the class with San Marco or CMA group) was the Izzo Pompeii 1 group. Binned the first shot as I overdosed. Thereafter, consistent nirvana. They are in fact easier to master than pump driven machines and other than basic exterior anatomy (the presence of some sort of lever), they have little in common with the cheaper, pretty little domestic lever machines. The Pompeii makes me look good at what I do.

Our Alex Leva ticks the build quality and bang for buck boxes on a smaller than commercial footprint. It can also be run from a flojet pump like all true lever machines. It is in fact a 1 group Izzo commercial on a more domestic sized chassis. The Bosco? Also terrific.

EK43 at home. Yep- you'd in fact need 5- 1 for decaf, 2 for different blends and a further 2 for origin. In a nutshell, a large commercial bag grinder in a home is ridiculous and borderline unsuitable for purpose.

[TampIt]

"Only the very best manual lever machines offer more flexibility - however with a far longer & steeper learning curve for the inexperienced. Check up a few reviews and/or owners feedback on the Swiss "Olympia Cremina", the Italian "La Pavoni manual levers" or any of the "Electra manual levers" if you wish to explore that option (even if just to exclude it in your mind). A much harder to live with precision tool... especially at first."


Your argument here is seriously flawed.
OP is considering a commercial machine. A GS3 is being discussed. You then bring in toys into the equation. The "levers" you mentioned are babies, and completely unsuitable for what the OP has described.
It would be far better to mention true levers that are much easier to master, and built to the standards the OP is seeking, then the models you have mentioned. Your comment about the best manual lever is also debatable.

If the OP wants a "LEVER" then the manufacturers to consider are:

Bosco
Izzo
Astoria
possible others

The next level down can probably be described as prosumer:

Strega
Londinium 1
Quick Mill
etc

Levers are not harder to master than a pump driven machine, on the contrary they are very easy to use, but the operator MUST understand the principles of espresso making.

As to grinders, all the talk about which one is better than the other is basically a load of egotistical nonsense. If you pay a $1000 or more for a grinder, you will get a great unit. The one to choose is the one that you like to use, not the one that internet hooha dictates. You can make crap coffee with a $200 grinder and with a $5000 grinder if your espresso making technique is not up to par.

Overall, buy something that you enjoy using, not something that the internet dictates you must have.

Anyone buying an EK43 for home use must have some serious psychological problems. It is monstrous in size, and I cannot imagine how it can simplify the joy of espresso making.
If someone is contemplating such a move, then they should seek professional help for their OCD.

Hi Bosco_Lever

Levers: I disagree - having lived with an Electra lever for well over 20 years, no way is it a toy. It took me nearly a year to get consistently equal coffees out of the 240V GS3. As for the Olympia Cemina - a few months with a friend's one convinced me it is the best manual lever I have ever used by a big margin - and that includes most of the ones you listed plus a few others. Easy to use - only the "baby people by doing everything including loading the spring types" are easy to use, however they are not as capable as the fully manual levers I prefer. As usual, YMMV and that is fine.

Grinders: depends what you are trying to achieve. Yes, you can make crap coffee with any gear if you are clueless. Recently I mentioned in another CS post that a particularly vile coffee came out of a "poseur driven" Strada (cannot remember if I stated that the roast was excellent and the grinder was a fairly newish Major). I also stated that given a good grinder (whatever that means) it is possible to make a decent cup in most espresso machines. If I had a large enough kitchen and was making a lot more coffees than I currently do, I would certainly consider replacing my Vario gen2s (easiest to live with domestic grinder plus a full blown Swiss commercial grade mechanism I know of) with an EK43 or two - simply because I know of no better grinder "this week". Just as I use a naked p/f, VST ridgeless baskets and 316 Pullman tampers, because I know of no better combination. Once again, YMMV and that is fine.

I should add that over the years I have used and hated almost every commercial grinder out there - and even owned far too many of them. I was taught "all grinders suck, some less than others" and it is only recently that is (finally) beginning to change.

TampIt

[deegee]

Quote from Post #19 - "Sorry, but after reading further I'm not so sure this is an entirely legit thread."

Neither am I. This guy has started several similar threads here and at CG's over a period of several years.

One of them reads a lot like this one.

[Bosco_Lever]

"Only the very best manual lever machines offer more flexibility - however with a far longer & steeper learning curve for the inexperienced. Check up a few reviews and/or owners feedback on the Swiss "Olympia Cremina", the Italian "La Pavoni manual levers" or any of the "Electra manual levers" if you wish to explore that option (even if just to exclude it in your mind). A much harder to live with precision tool... especially at first."


Your argument here is seriously flawed.
OP is considering a commercial machine. A GS3 is being discussed. You then bring in toys into the equation. The "levers" you mentioned are babies, and completely unsuitable for what the OP has described.
It would be far better to mention true levers that are much easier to master, and built to the standards the OP is seeking, then the models you have mentioned. Your comment about the best manual lever is also debatable.

If the OP wants a "LEVER" then the manufacturers to consider are:

Bosco
Izzo
Astoria
possible others

The next level down can probably be described as prosumer:

Strega
Londinium 1
Quick Mill
etc

Levers are not harder to master than a pump driven machine, on the contrary they are very easy to use, but the operator MUST understand the principles of espresso making.

As to grinders, all the talk about which one is better than the other is basically a load of egotistical nonsense. If you pay a $1000 or more for a grinder, you will get a great unit. The one to choose is the one that you like to use, not the one that internet hooha dictates. You can make crap coffee with a $200 grinder and with a $5000 grinder if your espresso making technique is not up to par.

Overall, buy something that you enjoy using, not something that the internet dictates you must have.

Anyone buying an EK43 for home use must have some serious psychological problems. It is monstrous in size, and I cannot imagine how it can simplify the joy of espresso making.
If someone is contemplating such a move, then they should seek professional help for their OCD.

[TampIt]

[QUOTE=Hossa12;549284]

FWIW I would spend just over half the dollars and buy a 220/240V LM GS3. Far better control over "minor things" like preinfusion and so much easier to live with domestically.

TampIt[/QUOTE
Thanks for your advice. But do u think that the GS3 is even better than the Dalla corte Mini?

Hi Hossa12

Given a decent grinder* PLUS either "a lot of experience" or "some seriously good training" it is actually very difficult to get a bad shot out of most quality machines. Given your budget, I would suggest spending at least $3000 on each grinder (FYI, I use one for dark roasts or decaf, one for medium SO's) and the rest on the actual espresso machine. You are the only person who can place the actual number of grinders required. The grinder is (IMO) much more important than the machine, as it is earlier in the coffee chain. Nothing can make a decent espresso out of a poor roast or poor grinder. On the other hand, a good roast & grinder plus a bit of savvy can give an outstanding shot in most "prosumer" gear - or even some fairly "low end" domestic gear for that matter.

Why I suggested the GS3 is the minimal impact on domestic living issues, fairly low maintenance plus its ability to make a coffee however you can envisage it. A truly precision tool for the aficionado who likes to tinker. Some much more expensive machines have more "bling" or raw throughput, however very few can beat its abilities, flexibility or performance for your 8 coffees a day. Given such low workload, the GS3 is still overkill, and yes, at that level it can do things the DC cannot (unless they have added them in the last two years or so without me being aware of it). As stated in another post, the Speedster (i.e. one of the most famous machines out there: think Ferrari or Bugatti cars) is basically a souped up GS3, although to call a GS3 "minimalist" is highly debatable if not outright contentious. A better description is probably "a clean design with incredible flexibility and power in a compact package". Oh, and emptying the water out before moving it is highly recommended - even empty you would swear it is made of lead & concrete.

As a previous GS3 owner (divorce casualty) I am still amazed that most other "high end machines" are not offering all the same features (yet). Only the very best manual lever machines offer more flexibility - however with a far longer & steeper learning curve for the inexperienced. Check up a few reviews and/or owners feedback on the Swiss "Olympia Cremina", the Italian "La Pavoni manual levers" or any of the "Electra manual levers" if you wish to explore that option (even if just to exclude it in your mind). A much harder to live with precision tool... especially at first!

As far as living with commercial machines at home: I also have a 2 group commercial La Pavoni (think small cafe "Mack truck" machine, not a lever). The sheer size of it and the noise relegates it outside, it needs a 15 amp power connection AND it must be plumbed in to both a water supply and a drain. If I can use it for the ravening hordes at a party it will provide coffee for 50+ without blinking - pity most of those occasions are held somewhere else (we alternate venues, like most families), and it takes two strong people to move it... then the destination has to have a 15amp powerpoint + plumbing... The La Pav takes around 30 minutes to warm up, and gives my 3Kw solar PVs a trashing in terms of power consumption. For my average day of 2 to 4 coffees at home, the La Pav is literally not worth the effort compared to my much more "domestic friendly machine" that makes identical quality coffee - 5 minute warm up, minimal power consumption, is quieter, just uses a 3 litre water tank (I use filtered rainwater, so plumbing the La Pav in was a real pain) and a standard powerpoint. It also fits in the (very small) kitchen.

The other piece of advice I would offer: How much effort are you willing to put in to learn how to get the best out of your chosen gear? Unless it is a long term passion, there are much simpler & cheaper answers which will be far less frustrating in the short to medium term.

* Personally I use two Mahlkonig Vario gen2's, approx $700 each, a larger budget would probably look at Mahlkonig EK43(s) at around $3500 each or similar competitor offerings (if there are any). Hard to go past the official world barista grinders... Mind you, the EK43 is not 5 times better than the Vario, just a lot faster, much higher throughput & with a few more tricks up its sleeve. Your budget, your call...

Hope this helps


TampIt

[ozscott]

Yes mate and have even drawn it from the hot tap (so straight from boiler) let it cool and tasted...no probs. Dont know the answer to the steam question. Its like anything though better to use them than not...like my boat. Not using it often enough is worse than using it all the time maintenance wise!

Cheers

[chokkidog]

But have you tasted the water straight from the boiler? Without coffee?

If it's refreshing quite quickly, it's probably alright.

I have tasted a few old machines (literally!) ........ bit of an eye opener for their owners, especially if they draw water off to make tea for paying clients.

They then take my original advice of using an electric jug for tea.

Out of interest, ozcott, ....how quickly do you think you're turning over the 11 litres as steam?

[Bosco_Lever]

Why not consider this commercial machine:

https://www.coffeeroasters.com.au/sh...illipo-1-group

Simple to use. Simple to maintain.
Hand made in Italy, and will last for years.
Bugger all electrical parts to fail, but best of all, over 50 yrs of manufacturing experience.
It makes damn fine espresso.

Fantastic bragging rights, and it it a real show stopper in the home.

Bosco can custom make whatever panels you desire.

10Amp plug.

No brainer.