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Profitec lever displayed at World of Coffee - what do you know about it?

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  • #16
    Yes.....ho hum....another square box with a lever bolted to the front. Niche market. Very small number of sales, no matter what (erroneous, in the real market place) impression readers may get from reading these pages. Their sales are miniscule in the total market. It will be a problem for manufacturers reading this stuff and getting onto the band wagon now (late), thinking they are going to make enough sales to warrant the trouble and cost of conceptualising, designing and building semi commercial models of this type, and if an importer wasn't already bringing other models in a line up into the country, it wouldn't be worth it except where a suitably large margin can be warranted/justified.

    At the moment, the market needs another slow moving semi commercial lever machine like a hole in the head, and most of these discussions are participated in by people that just want to talk about them rather than put their money where their mouth is and actually buy one.

    Yes....Anyone wanting to get into this niche should be thinking about offering something different than a rectangular SS box.
    Last edited by TOK; 23 June 2015, 04:39 PM. Reason: spelling

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
      I was hoping for some differentiation.
      We now have the following square boxes with a lever mounted on the front of it:
      Profitec
      L1
      Quick Mill
      Strega
      Alex Leva
      etc.....

      They all look the same, so how will they compete??? on price???
      I get what you are saying here, and I'm a bit of a fan of the Eagles etc. My previous machine was an Elektra.

      That said, look at the Controvento - radical styling and no one buys it. The Pro700 is the same machine in a square box and it's very popular.

      I guess the other way they can differentiate themselves is with the quality of the internal build - eg: Profitec are taking this angle with Stainless boilers, sprung valves etc.


      LM can make the same product, stick their logo on it, and own the market, even with a higher price tag. Why? Because they know a thing or two about sales and marketing.
      This assertion is not really accurate - LM machines have major mechanical points of difference. ie: their machines take a different mechanical approach.

      They don't use E61 setups, they instead use inhouse group heads. Even the Linea Mini does things quite differently to competing machines. They have gone with a tiny brew boiler sitting right on top of the (non E61) group, a massive steam boiler, and very analogue control.

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      • #18
        SS box agreed but I see some non-styling differences that are appealing to me. First, I own a Profitec and I think the build quality is excellent, second my preference is for a 58 mm PF lever (differentiated from the Izzo products), third I prefer a PID to P-Stat (don't abuse me please... differentiated from Londinium) and fourth I appreciate that I would be able to get local dealer support (again differentiated from Londinium).

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        • #19
          Having owned a lever for some time now, I am yet to be convinced of the merits of a PID.
          I would be interested in non-biased, extensive blind espresso cupping of a lever with a PID, and the taste differences associated with the corresponding changes in temperature.. Given their design and mass (and path of water), it is difficult to accurately judge the actual temp effects.
          If your preference is light roasted, thin bodied espresso, then a PID lever may not meet your expectations.
          A good test would be to line up this machine and a non lever, side by side. With a kilo of coffee (that you are familiar with), your own grinder, and at least an hour, you would get a pretty good indication of what the machines deliver, and if the lever is what you want.
          I am not bagging any brand of lever machine, just remember that each is designed differently, and will result in differences in the cup. Once you want to spend this amount of money, there are a lot of features to consider.
          The consumer today has a lot more choice than they did five years ago.

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          • #20
            My lever experience is limited to:
            • Izzo Nuova Pompeii aka Izzo 1 group dipper PID (55 mm San Marco dipper group on Izzo gear). All Izzo gear needs to be plumbed
            • Izzo Nuova Pompeii aka Izzo 2 group dipper PID
            • Multiple Izzo Pompeii 1, 2 and 3 group dipper pressurestat
            • Izzo Valchiria 2 group dipper PID
            • Multiple Izzo Alex Leva 1 group dipper PID
            • A couple of early tank vibe pump Stregas- both of which were way too hot. They needed a PID on the cartridge heaters in the proprietary group
            • 2 x Quickmill Achille (hybrid) CMA 1 group. Both were tank rotary pump/plumbable. One without PID and the other pimped with PID and cartridge heaters to group.
            • Ambient&spresso Ventus CMA dipper group without and then pimped with PID- plumbed


            My thoughts:
            • In San Marco and in CMA dipper configuration, a PID adjustment delivers a measurable and consistent change of temperature at the group. This has been verified by Scace logging of all configurations. A pressurestat adjustment delivers exactly the same result, but a PID adjustment is far simpler. We can and do get fantastic results from our machines with what I term lighter filter (read fruity, but not grassy, astringent, underdeveloped nor sour) roasts.
            • Stregas- cooked the coffee and nothing could be done about it die to the active group heating/no PID. How they evolved from the early ones I don't know as I haven't used one since
            • The Quickmills? Only a PID and cartridge heater helped them as they suffered from the same thermosyphon stall as the Londinium does. Plumbing them helped dramatically
            • Londinum- Rick fixed Andy's and made it actually work as it was marketed to work by adding a 2nd boiler and a PID. I guess a cartridge heater could also have been employed.

            I'm sold on the San Marco group and choose it over the CMA group regardless of configuration. My opinion is that the deeper baskets are less prone to channeling under the higher extraction pressures. Nevertheless, the dipper CMA is great as well. As for the PID- I'll have one every time as it's far more convenient than opening up to adjust a pressurestat. Without any doubt whatsoever, a PID makes a dipper far more versatile.

            Cheers

            Chris
            Last edited by TC; 24 June 2015, 12:47 PM. Reason: more info- forgot a couple...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
              I was hoping for some differentiation.
              We now have the following square boxes with a lever mounted on the front of it:
              Profitec
              L1
              Quick Mill
              Strega
              Alex Leva
              etc.....

              They all look the same, so how will they compete??? on price???
              hmmmmm, went looking on the Bosco website hoping to see some avante grade, new wave, post modern

              sculptural masterpiece of coffee machinery design but only found......

              another box! ;-)

              But seriously, I agree with you and TOK re espresso machine design generally, not just levers.

              I know there are prohibitive costs with design input and factory tooling for

              the very low sales volume which will only make costly machines more expensive but it's sad

              that not many have stuck their necks out with some serious design work.

              Originally posted by kwantfm View Post
              my preference is for a 58 mm PF lever (differentiated from the Izzo products)
              I know that sometimes we prefer things 'just because' but I'm interested in the why of your preference here.

              Using the 55mm SM lever group has been an absolute joy for me over the last couple of months.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                hmmmmm, went looking on the Bosco website hoping to see some avante grade, new wave, post modern

                sculptural masterpiece of coffee machinery design but only found......

                another box! ;-)
                And that is what I said in post #15.

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                • #23
                  Yep, saw that......

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                  • #24
                    Not quite a box

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                      I know that sometimes we prefer things 'just because' but I'm interested in the why of your preference here.

                      Using the 55mm SM lever group has been an absolute joy for me over the last couple of months.
                      My preference is for VST baskets.

                      I can see that a deeper, narrower basket would be more forgiving though.

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                      • #26
                        Which Faema group is Melbroaster referring to?

                        Originally posted by Melbroaster View Post
                        Ok some more info is:

                        Faema group
                        3L internal tank
                        PID with display concealed behind drip tray
                        3.x L boiler
                        Edit: First time poster, long time reader (mainly the Izzo Alex threads).

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                          Not quite a box

                          No! That's one out of the box! A simple tweak on a theme and bazinga!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by kwantfm View Post
                            My preference is for VST baskets.

                            I can see that a deeper, narrower basket would be more forgiving though.

                            Cheers, Kwant. Not just forgiving tho' ...

                            The 55mm filter, being deeper, requires a coarser grind than the Precision 58mm I was using on the Duetto.

                            Shots of the same coffee ( different roasts but same blend/profiles), are sweeter, creamier and with a more lineal balance.

                            Slightly different flavours or the same flavours but more nuanced and clear are also evident. Crema is smooth, sweet, fluffy and well...more creamy!

                            I'm pretty sure that the new grind setting is a major contributor to the changes. Dose weight is approx the same as before.
                            Last edited by chokkidog; 23 June 2015, 10:51 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by thm655321 View Post
                              Which Faema group is Melbroaster referring to?
                              Better known as the CMA group

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                              • #30
                                When I moved from a heat exchanger to dual boiler I actually did go through the process that Bosco described earlier. I visited Jetblack's workshop with HG one grinder, almost a kilo of beans I had roasted and knew well (half Ethiopian Sidamo and half Kenyan) and went through the process of identifying how different flavours were at different brew boiler temp settings. To be honest I'll never know if I was just being delusional (it's not practical to set this up as a double blind controlled study) but I felt at the time that I could clearly taste the difference between a 92*C and 95*C extraction. Perhaps I need to go through this again with Izzo and Profitec levers...

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