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Profitec lever displayed at World of Coffee - what do you know about it?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Better known as the CMA group
    Thanks. So am I correct that the Profitec looks to have the same CMA group as the Quickmill Achille/Ambient Ventus/post-2012 Arduino Leva? As I understand it that group is a 2 spring lever. See this parts diagram that I extracted from the Victoria Arduino Athena pdf, is this the one?

    I am a bit confused though as it looks identical to the Bosco group on a Londinium and I have read (perhaps misinformation) that the post-2012 Arduino Leva uses a Bosco group. How does the CMA group differ from the Bosco group on say the Londinium?

    Also I have had many shots at a local cafe on a pre-2012 Arduino Leva that has the old style group with the cap. Is the newer CMA group an improvement in shot quality over the older version?

    Thanks.

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    • #32
      I honestly don't believe these questions can be answered in a way that would be meaningful to the average punter, because any differences that may occur will realistically only be picked up in professionally / scientifically run "side by side" comparisons, and then if any differences are picked up, they will need to be explained in the context of specific parameters, and then they may only be meaningful to certain individuals in certain situations. And as has been stated often, what does it mean when a difference is found? Does that mean one behaviour or character is "better than" the other, or just *different*? And what of individual preferences?

      It may help to understand that lever group machines in the main, are only still being manufactured for commercial use in the southern Italian market from around Naples down, where the coffee differs markedly from "ours" by virtue of the fact they favour very darkly roasted blends made up almost entirely of what we call...."low grade" robustas (and where they believe that is the height of good quality, and our coffee is insipid rubbish).. If for small production purposes these machines (in toto...it's not just the lever group by itself) are now being adapted for our particular markets where we use medium roasts made up almost entirely of arabica based blends, then there will be some internal changes designed into the machines in toto, for suitability.

      You will also find that internal design of fiull size machines and the groups fitted to them, may not be set up in the same way as for much smaller semi-commercial (some call this "prosumer") sized machines.

      And therefore we need to reflect on the old adage, that the total performance of a machine or model is not just the sum of the individual tech specs of the individual components it is made up from. A "well set up group" is not going to perform very well if the machine it is bolted to is a dud.

      The market leader in lever machines is La San Marco, because it is by far the leading supplier of full (commercial) size lever machines in the south of Italy. Does that mean that the group used by La San Marco is better than anyone else's, in the context of a side by side comparison of a cup of coffee made from two different brand machines?

      After that, a different shot quality produced by a machine having groups set up differently to another, means what?....you say to-may-toe and I say to-mar-toe! Which is better ?

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      • #33
        Further googling revealed a 2012 blog post by Londinium which elaborates on these similar CMA/Bosco-style groups, the relevant excerpt is quoted below. Hopefully Profitec will release detailed specs.

        "We understand that there is only one significant manufacturer of lever groups remaining in Europe, which by implication means the world. The way it works is the bottom half of the group is common to a number of different models offered by this manufacturer, then you get to increase the performance of the group by choosing which 'top half' you want to bolt on

        The 'top half' of the group on Londinium I is the same as both Bosco and Kees van der Westen's Idrocompresso have now upgraded to, and the Quickmill Achille. It costs a full 50% more than the 'standard' top half with the external bearings.

        Why the additional cost? It has internal bearings so no unsightly group cap is required to stop users getting their hands caught under the bearings. To 'internalise' the bearings the top of the group needs to get a lot bigger, so you need a lot more brass. It also runs on a different cam profile which does clever things to the pressure profile.

        After that you get to play around with different springs, including the addition of a second spring if you wish, which also has a big impact on the taste."

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        • #34
          Originally posted by thm655321 View Post
          Further googling revealed a 2012 blog post by Londinium
          No need to read that one then as it's a demonstrated source of misinformation/hype.

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          • #35
            Londonian who?

            And with regard to quote "...Hopefully Profitec will release detailed specs..."

            Consumers don't generally buy a group by itself, they buy a whole machine, and its performance is governed by the total package.

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            • #36
              I understand the total package concept, but I like to know what I am buying. I know exactly what I would be getting with an Alex Leva, for instance, and I want to know exactly what I would be getting with the Profitec (as with any other consumer product for that matter).

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              • #37
                Removed. Thank you.
                Last edited by Bosco_Lever; 24 June 2015, 11:55 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
                  As to "filter roast" for espresso, no thank you, regardless of the machine (PID lever or Slayer).
                  If you're talking sour, grassy astringent and underdeveloped, I'm with you. Don't want to drink it in any way whatsoever.

                  We have had some great results with beans pulled a couple of degrees before second- as well as those in the vicinity of 2nd.

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                  • #39
                    I really didn't need to read that part about levers producing the thickest espresso

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                    • #40
                      Profitec Pro800

                      https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.718069578303882.1073741839.321109564666554& type=3

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                      • #41
                        It looks well thought out. I am impressed and would like to see a shot of the internal components. I like the PID location. I am wondering at this stage about warmup time and whether this machine suffers from thermosiphon stall. I also wonder if the under-frame is powdercoated steel or stainless.

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                        • #42
                          Agree with everything Paolo wrote. Are Bosco lever groups only designed to be thermosiphons? I wasn't sure if it might be a dipper.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by kwantfm View Post
                            Agree with everything Paolo wrote. Are Bosco lever groups only designed to be thermosiphons? I wasn't sure if it might be a dipper.
                            From my understanding they do both a thermosiphon AND a dipper version of the group. I think that the Mirage Duette Idrocompresso uses the dipper group.

                            I have no problem with the thermosiphon stall on my Quickmill Achille. The same flush that clears old dregs from the portafilter screen also brings the group back up to temperature. Ingenious actually. But you need a thermo strip on the group to be able to ascertain if you need to do a moderate flush or a small one...it's a flush that you need to do anyway.

                            The big advantage of the thermosiphon version of the group is that it comes up to temperature in just over 20 minutes. From what I have read, the dipper version takes maybe 45 minutes...can anyone confirm this?

                            Paolo

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                            • #44
                              So Jetblack Espresso has the T64 grinder on their website... but not the Pro 800 Lever! What's the go Charlie?

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                              • #45
                                Haha. A To-Do list longer than hours in the day!!

                                And also we have the T64 in stock whereas the Pro 800 sample machine hasn't landed at Jetblack HQ yet. As soon as we put one through it's paces I'll be able to say something more about it. But I do know it's a dipper and switchable from using its internal tank to mains water.

                                And I'll write some more about the T64 soon too. But one highlight for you - it grinds an 18g double in around 6 seconds. I've had a sample grinder at home for a couple of months and it is fast, quiet and clean. The espresso's not bad either :-)

                                charlie

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