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La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

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  • La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

    Two PIDs.... What the?

    Double vision and I need to have my eyes tested?

    Congrats on the new machine hellgq. I am sure you will enjoy it. For mine, it's a shame that LP couldn't come up with their own design and I will only ever see a copy of ECM Italy's 1990's form factor.

    If imitation is the sincerest from of flattery, I can only hope it spurs Rocket Espresso on to produce something else that makes other companies look over the fence.

    Chris

  • #2
    well at least you can see the dual temps without waiting for the display to cycle...

    Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Two PIDs.... What the?

    Double vision and I need to have my eyes tested?

    Congrats on the new machine hellgq. I am sure you will enjoy it. For mine, it's a shame that LP couldn't come up with their own design and I will only ever see a copy of ECM Italy's 1990's form factor.

    If imitation is the sincerest from of flattery, I can only hope it spurs Rocket Espresso on to produce something else that makes other companies look over the fence.

    Chris

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by brettreaby View Post
      well at least you can see the dual temps without waiting for the display to cycle...
      ...or that Gicar was having a big sale on single channel PIDS.

      It may well generate a fan club, but for me, I'm sorry to say that my opinion is that it's timeless design spoiled.

      There are lots of machines I don't sell, but do like. I don't like this design at all. Sorry guys.

      Comment


      • #4
        They didn't spend too much money on the design of that one did they.
        Considering the only external change is the twin pid, they could have made them look good. Guess it was a cheap change for them.

        Comment


        • #5
          For mine it all gets a bit weird at the top of the front panel, and not good weird. It seems like they've added height to fit in the PIDs, or lowered the group and valves but I dont think thats it looking at the base of the group.

          The original giotto has really well balanced visuals and this... Not so much.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by coffee_machinist View Post
            For mine it all gets a bit weird at the top of the front panel, and not good weird. It seems like they've added height to fit in the PIDs, or lowered the group and valves but I dont think thats it looking at the base of the group.

            The original giotto has really well balanced visuals and this... Not so much.
            I think they did a reasonable job here. I have seen worse with the readouts sitting above the frame as a front piece to the cup tray. Looks very weird.

            Personally I think the E61 machines like this look best absolutely minimalist as they are a retro product. In some ways digital displays just don't fit with the old fashioned, hewn from a single block of chrome plated brass E61 head and stainless case to contain it.

            On the other hand they've done as well as you can to integrate the information and analog gauges don't suit for this purpose. I can't really envisage any better solution...short of not having the information at all. The chromed up and down temperature adjustment buttons area a nice touch here.

            Comment


            • #7
              I guess they could have the PID on a lead and disconnect it like one of the rockets?

              I don't think it looks too bad at all, quite "techy".

              The kinked side panels look great.

              Cheers

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by artman View Post
                The kinked side panels look great.
                Yes- ECM Italy thought so close on 20 years ago.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by artman View Post
                  I guess they could have the PID on a lead and disconnect it like one of the rockets?

                  I don't think it looks too bad at all, quite "techy".

                  The kinked side panels look great.

                  Cheers
                  I think that isn't a bad idea. I can't see people adjusting brew temperature all that often.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    #shameless #imitations

                    Well that is disappointing.

                    A blatant copy of the hard work of all us here at Rocket Espresso. (see my earlier post on Coffee Snobs on this subject)

                    Nearly 9 years ago I and a good friend paid a substantial amount of money to buy the IP for the domestic portfolio of machines that was then being produced by the Italian company ECM.
                    I packed up my family and moved us all from New Zealand to Italy to pursue a dream of building the best espresso machine we possibly could, while that may sound fantastic to some, believe me its certainly not as easy as it sounds.
                    Those original designs have been slowly perfected over a number of years so that we are now lucky to be considered one of the better brands in the market. That has been through sheer hard work.

                    For another company to simply pick up the design work of Rocket Espresso (NB Italian company ECM never made a machine like this) and market it themselves is shameless and I would ask any potential buyer to think long and hard about supporting such shameless actions.

                    This particular espresso leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I didn't realise this is an infringement of the original design (agree it looks almost identical in the external kinked panels), just presumed the legalities of it were sorted/agreed. That's pretty poor form.

                      Cheers

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Surely this is a trademark issue.

                        I was looking at the Rocket Giotto. Aside from the side panels looking similar to the La Pavoni, it does have other external differences.

                        Mind you externally the E61 machines are all very similar. Internally I dont know enough to comment.

                        I suspect this is a complicated trademark dispute over copyright of the name 'Giotto'. Using similar side panels could invite a dispute, I can see that.

                        Is this machine A rip off or copy of the Rocket internally also?

                        ECM have been producing the Giotto for some years by the looks and Rocket bought part of ECM the domestic machines then La Pavoni bought the commercial division. My bet is the legalities werent worked out properly giving overlapping claims to names, design and technology.
                        Last edited by wattgn; 16 September 2016, 12:18 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RocketEspresso View Post
                          This particular espresso leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
                          Mine too Andrew. It's poorly roasted, underdeveloped, underextracted and from lousy black beans.

                          Apart from the fact that this will cause confusion in the market, it devalues the brand and Rocket's machine. In addition, the "design" of the one above is in exceptionally poor taste- dog ugly in my opinion. It absolutely reeks of noses out of joint- from the parent company all the way down to the sale. I am told that Giotto fakes are not approved for sale in Europe, Asia and the USA due to IP issues. I hope that Australia will soon follow.

                          We will be supporting Rocket Espresso and Espresso Company Australia by refusing service, support and parts for these unauthorised copies and their owners. We choose not to support unethical companies. I accept that others here are entitled to differing views and that's fine. I choose to sleep well at night.

                          Rocket Espresso has their certified authentic website page for those who what to check what they are purchasing.

                          Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                          Is this machine A rip off or copy of the Rocket internally also?
                          To this point, I have only seen inside the rotary pump HX model. What I saw reeks (not surprisingly) of Isomac: a brand which many years ago didn't make the cut for our range due to reasons of build quality, performance and finish. I haven't changed my opinion.
                          Last edited by TC; 16 September 2016, 08:54 AM. Reason: tpyo

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by coffee_machinist View Post
                            For mine it all gets a bit weird at the top of the front panel, and not good weird. It seems like they've added height to fit in the PIDs, or lowered the group and valves but I dont think thats it looking at the base of the group.

                            The original giotto has really well balanced visuals and this... Not so much.
                            I see what you mean. Comparing it to my Rocket gpp it is taller above the group. Loses some of the balance in the proportions.

                            Best way to show the world you have dual pids is to put them front and center LOL and make them red

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It seems to me ethically wrong when a junior member offers his new machine as proud owner, that he gets piled on.

                              This is a complex legal dispute and not at all clear cut except that La Pavoni have cleared all the legal hurdles set and have a clear path legally to sell this machine in Australia and elsewhere.

                              La Pavoni also sell a great range of machines and the warranty for this 'Giotto' is the same as for any other. The dealers who sell both La Pavoni and Rocket Express might have an issue if one supplier puts pressure on them but to me this all smacks of bad feelings going back to long lost legal battles.

                              I think it is wrong to portray this as clear cut.

                              http://www.ecm-espresso.it/EN%20La%20Pavoni%201011.pdf

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